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For those of you with an intelligent and curious mindset, we had a "correction" this very week, happily announced via our ever-vigilant media circus, to be a tiny bit older than past ESTIMATES.
But here, for all to see, is the predictable gloatage from one of our start gloators-in-residence...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
So why do you continue to stick with the silly theory despite proofs otherwise?
So wait a minute now. I'm v. confused, Vizio! Proofs otherwise? Huh?
'Cause, uhmmm... errrrr... last week anything and everything that Dat Ol' Debul Syunss said was biased, a pack-o-lies and the product of a global conspiracy of untrustable scientists, all, oh let's say, several thousand of them, right? Versus, as always, your several thousand well ed-juh-caytuhdChristian scientists (graduates from such hallowed establishments as The Institute for Creationist Mumbo Jumbo Folklore, or from they-own self-cree-ay-tuhd Colleges, made up as the need arises), the whole pack of those noble, honest and very believable bunch of them.
Am I right so far? OK then, let's continue, shall we?
So now, when you suppose (and I emphasize only "suppose"...) thet-thar entity Science was lying through it's teeth just last week, but is suddenly quite respectable, and when it corrects it's previous estimate (it was always just exactly that, until some scientist or group of same makes an absolute claim about the time-frame and exact origins of the universe, you have to lie, with no reason to, about how wrong it always is!
Well then, OK! How Selectively Convenient of you! (Plus, you didn't think we'd all notice your glaring and provocatively dishonest hypocrisy? Really?)
So far though, I must have missed where such a fantasy group of klutzo-scientists has ever made that claim: to wit" "The universe is now, by our careful calculations, officially and forever, exactly 14.2956932 years, 23 h, 14 minutes and 47 seconds...old! And that's final!"
Nope. Not in our lifetime. It's always been an estimated calculation, and if you were to, just this once, actually and honestly check up on it by reading () some of the supporting journal articles, instead of rambling on with your typical official knee-jerk over-reactions, you'd find that verbiage abut our ESTIMATES, not what you so arrogantly claim here.
Btw, the revision in estimated age is upwards; as in older, not younger. But THAT number will always be subject to improvements based, as this one was, on ever-better methods, not some hypothetical mumbo-jumbo guesswork, in our abilities to better calculate what we measure:
And I'll highlight the line from this v. credible article, which I copy here since I'm pretty sure you are to afraid of such information to ever open and read it...
"Until recently, astronomers estimated that the Big Bang occurred between 12 and 14 billion years ago. To put this in perspective, the Solar System is thought to be 4.5 billion years old and humans have existed as a genus for only a few million years. Astronomers estimate the age of the universe in two ways: 1) by looking for the oldest stars; and 2) by measuring the rate of expansion of the universe and extrapolating back to the Big Bang; just as crime detectives can trace the origin of a bullet from the holes in a wall."
For an intriguing overview of all the options, as well as how it's age has been been ESTIMATED, take a gander at this article, for those of you not hopelessly stuck in the mental quagmire of Parrot-quality Christendom:
But (and not in any way "finally"...), as of the 3/20/'13 News at 11, there's this...
3) a revision from ≈13.7 something years old, to ≈ 13.8 M. years old. Wow! Best get our man Vizio some smellin' salts, Murtha! He may be aboutz-tah pass out from the sheer mgnitude of all this!"
...which was just recently improved in it's "resolution" to change the estimated age of our universe.
Stephen Hawking, who is measurably smarter than Vizio, and even me (), has this to say about our ongoing and constantly revised viewpoint, covering as he does here about 2 thousand years of knowledge, starting of course, with the stultified and oh-so-arrogant Christian Church's absolutist claims of the past, right up to the present.
"The ideas which had grown over two thousand years of observation have had to be radically revised. In less than a hundred years, we have found a new way to think of ourselves.
From sitting at the center of the universe, we now find ourselves orbiting an average-sized sun, which is just one of millions of stars in our own Milky Way galaxy. And our galaxy itself is just one of billions of galaxies, in a universe that is infinite and expanding.
But this is far from the end of a long history of inquiry. Huge questions remain to be answered, before we can hope to have a complete picture of the universe we live in."
You mean... OMG! Science doesn't have ALL THE ANSWERS just yet? Only good (and always improving..) estimates? OMG!
"I prefer to have the absolute answers from within my bible! Even if they are patently nutty!"
Well anyhow, thanks Stephen, for helping us out with our thinking processes here. Some obviously really need the help!
And regardless, let's never forget, ever again, that the universe is still a tad bit older than 6037.6 years, complete with a cute finger-snappin' Insta-Poofy Creationist Rap Song sung by a hollow, straw-filled icon-man, the evidence for which just instantly evaporates under even a cold neon light of any credible lab's investigation.
But say now: doesn't your bible say sumthin' about "thou shalt not bear witness to some wooden (or straw, which is a form of wood of course..) icons?", Viz me'boy? Or for that matter, wooden carvings screwed to the decorated glass end-wall of an also-iconic-worship church?
Hmmm.... Always nice to see rank hypocrisy and fabrication at work, huh, Big V? Best not get it wrong this weekend when you'z preachin' falsehoods to those innocent but obviously non-critically thinking minds.
You wouldn't be planning on outright lying to them this weekend in your sermonizing, now would you, Vizio? You know, telling them that "science has once again gotten it all wrong! See? Right here on CNN!" [PS: And noting that Wolf Blitzer is NOT God, though I'm fairly sure he often thinks so...]. Well, I certainly hope you'd not outright lie to your trusting listeners, would you? Lying to your dependent troop would be a SIN, and we all know good Christians do NOT ever sin!
Just remember: if you do perpetrate this creative silliness on your flock but purely for dramatic effect, then you are a sinner, and will absolutely have to answer to your God in the not-too-distant future! And also remember: even if there is an almighty God, as you purport, I at least won't be guilty of lying when I have my heart-felt discussion with Him at those gates! I do not lie, unlike, it would appear, you choose to.
Q: So why not pose a simple question to your flockistás tomorrow for a sort of reading and thinking assignment, answers to be reviewed the next weekend?
Like: "How do you thinkers in my audience suppose Noah got 60+ Million animal & plant species, times about 100 each for the more sensitive types (cheetahs, lions, gazelles, Tibetan Snow Leopards, Amazonian Mountain Gorillas, and the like...) onto one leaky unpowered barge that also had to endure tsunamis, no light source, literally thousands of tons of daily dung (though with literally nothing to eat, one wonders just what the actual source of "roughage" might be... hmmm...), no potable water and natch, no plant food to eat?" Damned logic, huh, Viz, my main man?
You know:you might go ahead and tickle their curiosity and creative undt critical thinking just for this once, instead of telling them how and what to think. And then just leave that one there to simmer for a week on their naturally inquisitive minds? {Though you can also tell 'em it's OK to use the internet to "suss out" some possible answers...}
After all, I'm sure you haven't entirely killed off all their curious brain cells yet, have yah?
It's only 13.8 Billion years old say the science boys.
******************************
From the below link:
The Planck space probe looked back at the afterglow of the Big Bang, and those results have now added about 80 million years to the universe's age, putting it at 13.81 billion years old.
But here is what I found fascinating in the article:
"The Big Bang — the most comprehensive theory of the universe's beginning — says the visible portion of the universe was smaller than an atom when, in a split second, it exploded, cooled and expanded faster than the speed of light."
The Universe was smaller than an atom at the time of the Big Bang? I already knew that, but think about it. How can it be that thru mere chance we have this entire universe, with life, mathematics and so forth?
Consider this to be the thought for the day.
May your mind be boggled!
This is from a Christian's perspective below:
"In Christ is all created."
Col_1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth,
the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or
authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
"All is out of Him and through Him and FOR HIM."
The entire universe one day is going to end up being back in Christ: see Ephesians 1:10
Christ has a direct link to all of creation. The so-called "big bang" began in Christ.
The term "big-gang" however is a misnomer since in a vacuum sound does not travel or can be heard. Maybe it should be called "the big ejection"?
"The entire universe one day is going to end up being back in Christ"
Huh? Back inChrist? He must have pretty big britches, huh? Not to mention... all them stars might make one's undies a bit itchy, don't you think, Eusebius?
The speed the galaxy moves away from us is directly proportional to the distance from us. Now think of big bang theory. Hubble's constant is equal to velocity over distance. 1 over Hubble's constant is equal to distance over velocity that is equal to time. Time equals to 1over 71. If you change it into all the same units words it is one over 71000 or 3.09x 10 to the power of 22. It is 3.09x10 to the power 22 over 71000 seconds. It is 3.09x10 to the power 22 over 71000 and 31,556,926 years. The age of Universe is 13.8 billion years.
That is of course different from the rounded 13. 72 using more accurate scientific measuring.
WOW my 10 year old understands this, but many adult Christians do not. And they wonder why we do not go to church.
I wonder what way (other than the scientific implications) the "adult Christian" PRIEST (Georges Henri Joseph Edouard Lemaitre) that figured out the "Big Bang" understood it?
I bet HE thought "God" figured into it somehow!...I bet he went to church too.
But he was just one of those "fairytale believing ignorant Christians"...so, what would he know?!
All theological Belief, and NonBelief, has merit. All are equally entitled to whatever Belief their intuition and perception moves them to believe, or to not believe....without insult, criticism, or hassle. To each his/her own view!
Unless I'm the one doing the mocking...then it's okay. But only then.
And regardless, let's never forget, ever again, that the universe is still a tad bit older than 6037.6 years, complete with a cute finger-snappin' Insta-Poofy Creationist Rap Song sung by a hollow, straw-filled icon-man, the evidence for which just instantly evaporates under even a cold neon light of any credible lab's investigation.
You overestimated it just a tad. The evidence instantly evaporates under the bioluminescent pulsating abdomen of a firefly on a warm summer night.
Did you know that an atom is 99.9999999999999% empty space? Which means you and I are almost nothing....
Well, not really, because of the wave/particle duality of all matter, our conventional ways of thinking about space don't really work that way at the quantum level. Basically, according to quantum mechanics, the empty space in the atom where the electrons orbit is actually occupied by a probability field dictating the likelihood that the electron will exist in any one point at a given time, but the electron is actually existing as that wave function of probability until some outside force interacts with it causing the wave function to collapse and the electron to exist in a more particle like state at a given location (although its speed will then necessarily become uncertain). When you get down small, matter starts to behave really, really weird, in ways that don't make sense intuitively to us as creatures that understand the physics of the universe at this scale. They proved that matter really does exist as a probability wave by firing one molecule at a time at two slits on a screen and finding that it passed through BOTH SLITS AT THE SAME TIME, and then the probability waves interacted with each other to produce a wave interference pattern on a receptor beyond the slits, which is frankly insane if you think about it.
Perhaps the time stream we and our universe currently occupy is merely a (relatively) new tributary of a much larger and older stream of time.
In that case - time existed before the universe. And of course if there is a before, then time necessarily existed.. I think the problem here is a human's inability to comprehend the absence of time.
If we don't try to imagine it in our cause-and -effect and our everyday expereince framework, and just put it into language it is easier: - time and the universe co-exist, and there is no time absent the universe, so no-one needs to worry about "before" the universe existsing, there is no before, it is a time-chained concept. In fact, its just describing time. If there is no before, you also don't have to come up with theories about what was happening "before" that led to the universe existing.
Well, not really, because of the wave/particle duality of all matter, our conventional ways of thinking about space don't really work that way at the quantum level. Basically, according to quantum mechanics, the empty space in the atom where the electrons orbit is actually occupied by a probability field dictating the likelihood that the electron will exist in any one point at a given time, but the electron is actually existing as that wave function of probability until some outside force interacts with it causing the wave function to collapse and the electron to exist in a more particle like state at a given location (although its speed will then necessarily become uncertain). When you get down small, matter starts to behave really, really weird, in ways that don't make sense intuitively to us as creatures that understand the physics of the universe at this scale. They proved that matter really does exist as a probability wave by firing one molecule at a time at two slits on a screen and finding that it passed through BOTH SLITS AT THE SAME TIME, and then the probability waves interacted with each other to produce a wave interference pattern on a receptor beyond the slits, which is frankly insane if you think about it.
Quite so, BB! The persistent problem with modern-day limited imagination theists is that they require that we and they be able to "suss"" it all out just like their priestly fathers did a few centuries ago. You know, where everything had a nice tidy answer (like Noah's Ark, dinosaur fossils placed by God to test our faith, the geological column being all rubbish, and so on and so forth.)
Too bad that we are, for now at least, hampered by a truly inadequate IQ level. Hey: just think: a chimp, or a great ape, simply doesn't have the brainial wherewithall to figure out, let's say, 12/1.45 = ?*, while for most of us that's quite a simple and understandable problem. (*fyi: 14.4827...)
But for us still-evolving hominids to have to face the fact that, even though we've supposedly been designed and built by The Great and Powerful Oz, we as of yet do not have the intellectual "right stuff" to figure out the universe's beginning.
But just you wait! Imagine the look of utter amazement if we could do The Vulcan Mind Meld...
...with a chimp, and he'd suddenly understand exactly how a laser works, and there would be a really big "Wow!!" look on his face, eh? (Even though most theists here also do not understand how lasers work, {Special Clue: It's NOT a Godly miracle thing, I can assure you! It's really quite straightforward!!} let alone their chimp cousins... Oh well, huh?)
Just like when someone such as an offspring of Stephen Hawking and some other über-IQ'd wonder woman (so their offspring might have an IQ of, let's say, 250...) would, by age 10, have read all about quantum physics, then they'd stare up at space, then read all our boks on the subject and finally, POOF!... provide us with an understandable story of how it did, indeed, all come from some parallel alternate pre-and post-existing co-universe?
Or... stated another way (and thx to bg7 for this...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7
I think the problem here is a human's inability to comprehend the absence of time.
If we don't try to imagine it in our cause-and -effect and our everyday experience framework, and just put it into language it is easier: - time and the universe co-exist, and there is no time absent the universe, so no-one needs to worry about "before" the universe existsing, there is no before, it is a time-chained concept. In fact, its just describing time. If there is no before, you also don't have to come up with theories about what was happening "before" that led to the universe existing.
Nice ideas, bg7! No doubt there's some real conceptual truth in all of what you wrote here for us today, but still... it just won't fly for the theists, who insist on having all of it explained in simple Sunday School comic logic level, right now! Today!
(C'mon now, boyz and gurlz: I'z juss kiddin', oh thou all-too-serious children of God! Just kidding! YrHmblSrvnt: rflmn™)
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) some of the supporting journal articles, instead of rambling on with your typical official knee-jerk over-reactions, you'd find that verbiage abut our ESTIMATES, not what you so arrogantly claim here.
), has this to say about our ongoing and constantly revised viewpoint, covering as he does here about 2 thousand years of knowledge, starting of course, with the stultified and oh-so-arrogant Christian Church's absolutist claims of the past, right up to the present.
I had NO idea!
