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Lots of shameful apologetics here from Christians desperately trying to defend God. I guess they never got past the first 2 chapters of Job, because poetry is just SO boooooring...
Therefore I say,
'Guiltless as well as wicked he [God] destroys.'
When the scourge slays suddenly,
He mocks the despair of the innocent.
Earth is given to the control of the wicked.
The faces of her judges he covers.
If not he, then who?
(Job 9:22-24, AB 15, Pope)
The last sentence is a rhetorical question, affirming that God is culpable for the afore-mentioned things. Job's friends violently and "righteously" protest such accusations against God (exactly as several posters in this forum have done, to make excuses for God), to which Job replies:
You are daubers of deceit,
Quack healers, all of you.
....
Is it for God's sake you speak evil,
For him that you utter deceit?
Will you show partiality for him,
Will you contend for God?
Will it be well with you when he probes you?
Can you trick him as men are tricked?
He will rebuke you severely,
If you covertly curry favor.
Will not his fear overwhelm you,
And his dread fall upon you?
(Job 13:4, 7-11)
So what of the "daubers of deceit" - the "quack healers"? The extremely fundamentalist Christians who cannot abide the fact that God encompasses ALL things - both good and evil, as Isaiah said? Was Job correct? Well, as a matter of fact he WAS:
After Yahweh [God] had spoken these words to Job, Yahweh said to Eliphaz the Temanite,
"My anger burns against you and your two friends; for you have not spoken truth of me, as did Job, my servant. So, now, take yourselves seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to Job, my servant, and make a burnt offering for yourselves and Job, my servant, will pray for you, for I will accept him, so that I may not do anything rash to you;
for you have not told truth of me, as did Job, my servant."
(Job 42:7-8)
It's too bad there's not a Job - God's true servant (notice that the friends are not called God's servants, for they clearly were not speaking truth of God when they spent their time trying to "save" God from Job's truthful allegations) - to pray for you various "daubers of deceit" and "quack healers". Well, actually, it's not too bad. I'd say it's Justice and Judgement.
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies.
Nahum 1:2
]Amazing, John. I would just add that it is fallacy or even bamboozlement to play the 'You don't know what it was like - you weren't there!' card.[/b] Again and again you have to stand outside the experience to evaluate it. Get too close and you lose perspective.
No. I haven't experienced this God = Love thing. But I know a man who has. Half of atheists have been there, done that and got the 'God is Love' T -shirt. And they came to realize that it wasn't God at all. It was something inside their own heads.
That is why, Miss Hepburn, while I can understand and sympathize with the claims you and Mystic make that your mental experience is telling you that there is a real god Out There, I cannot take your word for it and must suppose that you have both misinterpreted the experience.
Now, while I have made my position clear and have explained why I am there and assuring you that I am quite happy for you to believe what you like and am delighted that you are so happy with it. I would again ask whether this God is Love which is still the God of the Old Testament is wrathful or not.
Do you maintain that the OT accounts of a God who is seriously short on love and long on brutality are simply not true? Or whether in some Mystical way all that is justifiable as the actions of a God of Love.
I respectfully await your response
Odd that you take this other man's experiences and ultimate conclusions as acceptable (because they agree with you) and not Miss Hepburn's or mine. I begin to see the possible source of your increasingly more derogatory position in the bold excerpts quoted here. There are very persistent and consistent enemies of my views who proclaim some agenda of mine to deceive . . . (your preferred word being bamboozle). They also repeatedly assert that there is absolutely no evidence and no good reason to believe me. It seems you may have been conscripted in the service of their views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
This is the classy way one disses or disagrees or disbelieves someone or their experiences.
I hope others can learn from this.
I respect you, Arq and your skeptism, shall we say?
I do not expect anyone to ever believe the things I say have happened to me...they are
pretty amazing, I agree....and you don't know 99:9% of them! Ha!
I'm too new here to have told many yet!
Just to clarify..."Out There" and all around and inside me...wowsa!
Take care Miss Hepburn
He has been, Miss Hepburn . . . but it seems he has been corrupted in the service of a more aggressive and disrespectful atheism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
So, why are you attempting to contribute to this forum, if you don't expect other posters to believe you? You have every right to post, but how can you advance the debate by posting views that you don't expect others to believe? You won't even explain your experiences. In this thread I'm not even asking you to convince others, but what convinced you that it was God?
This is the kind of reception any believer can expect after having been enticed to explain their views by "what convinced you?' types of questions. Even though the only reason for posting is to EXPLAIN . . . they will attack you for not providing sufficient evidence or reason to believe you. It is a no win scenario.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
You may always rely on me, dear madam, to be classy. I may talk crap (1), but it's classy crap.
I do not at all rule out that you and Mystic too are right. Even less do I want to stop you believing it. All I am saying is that the reasons commonly given as to why it can be relied on as true with the implication that we ought to believe it, too or at least take your explanation as true, do not convince and there is no good reason for us to believe it.
That said, we can agree to differ and can reasonably co -exist assuming that you do not seek to impose your views on us through hi -jacking law, politics education and science.
It is organized religion that I am chasing with a metaphorical crane with a large black ball swinging on the end. But in the classiest way possible, mind you.
(1) Just see my explanation of how the Universe started on the Creationism thread for an example
Whenever I see the "there is no good reason for us to believe it" accusation or anything similar . . . I know it emanates from those quarters where there is NO open mindedness . . . only derision and mocking . . . if not direct flame-baiting and denigration. I have two posters on ignore for that reason. Don't join them by being a proxy attacker for them and their "absolutely no evidence whatsoever" views, Arequipa. There may not be ENOUGH evidence to meet your "forward planning" criterion, Arequipa . . . but there IS evidence and reason to believe.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 05-19-2013 at 03:02 PM..
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and vents his wrath against his enemies.
Nahum 1:2
Odd that you take this other man's experiences and ultimate conclusions as acceptable (because they agree with you) and not Miss Hepburn's or mine. I begin to see the possible source of your increasingly more derogatory position in the bold excerpts quoted here. There are very persistent and consistent enemies of my views who proclaim some agenda of mine to deceive . . . (your preferred word being bamboozle). They also repeatedly assert that there is absolutely no evidence and no good reason to believe me. It seems you may have been conscripted in the service of their views.
He has been, Miss Hepburn . . . but it seems he has been corrupted in the service of a more aggressive and disrespectful atheism.
This is the kind of reception any believer can expect after having been enticed to explain their views by "what convinced you?' types of questions. Even though the only reason for posting is to EXPLAIN . . . they will attack you for not providing sufficient evidence or reason to believe you. It is a no win scenario.
Whenever I see the "there is no good reason for us to believe it" accusation or anything similar . . . I know it emanates from those quarters where there is NO open mindedness . . . only derision and mocking . . . if not direct flame-baiting and denigration. I have two posters on ignore for that reason. Don't join them by being a proxy attacker for them and their "absolutely no evidence whatsoever" views, Arequipa. There may not be ENOUGH evidence to meet your "forward planning" criterion, Arequipa . . . but there IS evidence and reason to believe.
If Miss Hepburn and you are in a no-win situation, its because neither have provided any evidence to "win" anything, even a contest at a Sci-Fi convention, which would likely go to one of those who claims a more logical alien abduction. Miss Hepburn even admits that her experiences are hard to believe, yet you are even intellectually honest enough to it.
Do you not see how your claims are denigrating and insulting to us, insinuating that we're not worthy of a "visit" from your celestial friend, without the mental faculties to understand how you are "the chosen one" to receive his/her/its revelations?
When I was a little girl (age 12) reading the Bible for myself in search of truth, the God of the Old testament seemed incredibly angry and vengeful to me and I was terrified of Him. As I got older and continued seeking the truth, I eventually had my own personal experiences with Him. Talk about Loving and liberating! Changed my entire world view and perception as well as my perception of the Bible. I got glimpses of love from my family (particularly my grandmother) but this was above and beyond and in its purest form.
I think if people perceive God to be wrathful, most people, it's because of what people have told them and by the spirit which those people share it with them. For those who read it themselves and perceive Him as wrathful, keep searching, because I am 100% sure that God is unconditionally loving. Yes, even the God of the Old Testament. I can't make you see it. No one else could make me see it either. BUt when I experienced it for myself, I knew beyond a doubt.
I must say I relate to what you wrote because years ago I felt the say way as I read the Bible. Even though I do not believe it is the word of God, I do believe in a diety existence.
From a philosophical point of view I still cannot agree how a loving God is portrayed in the Old Testament. God the orders taking a city and with no mercy expects all women and children to be slaughtered is still beyond me. We as imperfect humans have shown more mercy when it comes to warfare thus have come up with a Geneva Convention.
Also, one of his kings has an adulterous affair with a married woman and arranges the circumstances for the faithful husband and loyal soldier to die in the battlefield. What does God do, kills the baby! Later that king marries the woman and lives happily ever after. I can see forgiveness to that king if he repents, no problem with that part. My issue is killing the inocent baby!
That same God allows men to have more than one woman in a marriage arrangement. Later, no, it is wrong. I have heard many believers of God that they do not compromise in moral principles, great! I admire that. However, the God they serve did by compromising in allowing men to have more than one wife and later say no.
How about Job. The guy loves God. Now God allows the worst spirit in the universe to do whatever he wants to this guy to prove he love him. What a way to put this good man to such peril for the devil to simply have his fun in trying to prove otherwise. If God knows the heart of humans, why allow this poor guy to go through what the devil wanted to prove him wrong? I good leader does not have to out there answering questions when he knows he is doing the right thing. Did Jesus stay quiet when he was being questioned by Pilate? Even Pilate admired the silence of Jesus to the point that he said he found no fault in him. God did not have to prove anything to the devil if he know the loyalty of Job.
Jesus Christ is a much better example of a more humane philosophy in life. I do admire him in many ways. Not that I may agree with all his teachings but in the overall scheme of things he is merciful, not a hypocrit, and was willing to die for what he believed. We honor people like that even if in some areas we may not agree with their views.
If you are happy and were able to reconcile those things you mention, good for you. I just can't reason those actions of the god in the OT as morally correct. Take care.
Odd that you take this other man's experiences and ultimate conclusions as acceptable (because they agree with you) and not Miss Hepburn's or mine. I begin to see the possible source of your increasingly more derogatory position in the bold excerpts quoted here. There are very persistent and consistent enemies of my views who proclaim some agenda of mine to deceive . . . (your preferred word being bamboozle). They also repeatedly assert that there is absolutely no evidence and no good reason to believe me. It seems you may have been conscripted in the service of their views.
He has been, Miss Hepburn . . . but it seems he has been corrupted in the service of a more aggressive and disrespectful atheism.
Now you are being disrespectful to me. And atheism. I offer the experience as others as an evidential counter to the apparent claim that the experience of God is actually God when the experience of others that it isn't confounds that. Again a dishonest argument on your part and not wishing to wound, but it is. You fail to understand and you misrepresent and ad hom. That is what I meant that you found so hurtful.
Now this I find hard to comprehend. I am not intending to debate this but want to try to understand what seems to be a real mental perception.
While this sudden revelation of a god of love (and this experience is so common and universal that I have to credit it as real) gives you a totally different view of God from that you derived from just reading the Bible, you still think it is the same God. I can understand that.
What I'd like to know is, do you think that what is described in the OT is myth and and not at all the behaviour of the God you experienced or do you believe it to be true and somehow Experience of god made you see it differently and not at all the actions of a wrathful and vengeful god?
I have and I see nothing that negates the first sentence which says... "The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.".
So why don't you amaze us all by showing us just what, in the rest of Nahum1, negates what it says in the first verse.
So the God you believe in is the God of the Old testament but not the God described in the Old testament?
Then why do you think that this God you experience is anything to do with Biblegod? Can you really suppose that, if you had been born in Saudi Arabia it wouldn't have been the god of the Quran or if in India it would be the God of whichever sect of Hinduism you had been born into?
What, other than sheer force of habit, makes it Biblegod?
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