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Yes you are and you're being quite obvious about it.
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but I've been reading an awful lot about the Mormon church these days, and it seems as if the claims and "sacred texts" presented by Joseph Smith have been entirely debunked. The preponderance of evidence indicates that his Book of Mormon was entirely made up or cribbed from other existing stories, like the actual bible and books like Pilgrim's Progress. None of the "historical record" in the Book of Mormon can be verified by scientific records/analysis. Further, anecdotes gathered indicate that he was a total con man and an adulterer. And the Mormon Church is also constantly revising the church's history.
Everything you just said there are also true of the Bible and its believers, the Quran and its believers, the Vedas/Sutras/etc (Hindu texts) believers in those, etc. Conversely, there are things that science used to say were impossible that have since been proven to have occurred. There is a group in the Mormon religion that handles these sorts of things. Used to be called FARMS, but when I searched for that, it looks like they changed the name to Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship. Now I'm going from memory here so please bear with me, but I do recall an article of theirs -- it listed 45 things mentioned in the Book of Mormon that science had determined did not exist in the Americas prior to Columbus. Since then about 38 of those items have turned up. That does not prove nor disprove anything. Much like the Bible, you can't definitively prove that it is true or that it is false, but there will be folks who will try to do both of those things ... probably till the end of the world.
Every book or text in existence that any religion considers sacred has been "debunked" by somebody. Some scholar somewhere feels that they've proven that X, Y and Z events in said book or books cannot possibly have happened. Then the believers in those sacred writings modify their understanding of X, Y and Z slightly or scientific discoveries disprove the scientific proof.
Conversely, precious few sacred texts (those sacred to some religion that still exists) have been completely and totally debunked -- aka proven beyond all doubt to be utterly false/fictitious.
Last edited by godofthunder9010; 07-17-2013 at 08:10 PM..
True, but the viciousness with which the Mormon church and Scientology go after those who would question either faith,
The Catholic Inquisitions were vicious. I'm am unaware of either of those faiths doing anything remotely similar. Are we talking conspiracy theories or do you have some evidence to share that Mormons and Scientologists routinely hunt down, assault and kill their apostates? Do you have credible sources to back up such claims?
If I had to guess, I'd say you're an ex-Mormon or have been listening to a lot of ex-Mormons. One thing that seems to hold true for most people atheists: They tend to obsessively focus their attacks against organized religion on whatever religion they came from. Ex-Catholics are obsessed with debunking and tearing down all things Catholic, etc.
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plus the fact that both were - if you look at the factual evidence - most likely founded by megalomaniacs with mental health and moral compass issues makes me wonder why bother with the religion at all? Why not just hang on to the ideas that work and flush the label and trappings?
Right and coming from an atheist, that is applicable to Mohammed, Budda, Jesus Christ, Moses, etc.
You do seem to be singling out Mormonism because you know that many Christians view it as an extremely controversial religion. Call it blasphemy or heresy or whatever you like, Mormonism is one of those religions that is constantly on the receiving end of vicious verbal attacks by more traditional Christian believers. I think you know that and are trying to rally the Mormon hating mob. Do you have any other purpose in creating this thread??
We've seen what happens when Christians doubt the Bible, but want to hold on to their faith--they become liberal Christians. They think it's all allegory and inspirational stories. We see that with liberal Jews that don't take the Torah as being actual history. So what are Mormons going to do? They'll just change liberal theologians--and not actually believe it, but instead just see it as allegorical and a bunch of inspirational stories.
This a common response, I agree, but not the only possible one. Another is "circle the wagons" and dig in, perhaps move to a splinter group that's even more conservative. Sort of like a gay man in denial and redoubling his efforts to be heterosexual. Another is a lateral move to another denomination or even another religion that offers a familiar and comforting certitude with a different justification. In other words, find a more comfortable and unthreatened / unchallenged rationalization to sustain the god illusion. As an example, someone moves to Seventh Day Adventism or a charismatic church -- assuming the Missing Ingredient is a different worship day or a different interpretation of a couple of Bible verses dealing with how one experiences the spirit of god. Or maybe they jump way over to Judaism or Islam -- uncommon but it happens. That could keep one busy for years happily learning new mythologies and taboos and rules and rituals and cultural norms and thinking they've solved the problem.
What happens when your holy book is totally debunked?
The first problem is, it is impossible to prove any "Holy Book" is false. The inability to prove something is true, is not proof it is false.
A person or group attempting to debunk another religions scripture comes across as someone grasping at straws in an attempt to prove their own "Holy Book" is true.
I disagree very much with The Christian Bible (all versions) The Torah (As it exists today) The "Book of Mormon" and nearly every other "Holy Book".
But I can not debunk nor prove any scripture I disagree with is false. That is not even my burden and I do know the more I attempt to prove any scripture I disagree with is false, the more tenacious the adherent will become in their belief it is correct.
Attempting to show a person their "Holy Scripture" is false is an excellent way to strengthen an adherents belief in it.
Going back to the original question.
What happens when your holy book is totally debunked?
ANSWER: It deeply reinforces my belief, that my "Holy Book" is correct and the proof is in how desperate the forces of evil are trying lead me away from it.
ANSWER: [/b]It deeply reinforces my belief, that my "Holy Book" is correct and the proof is in how desperate the forces of evil are trying lead me away from it.
That's the knee-jerk and typical response but there are always those who have mental reservations and doubts who, when presented with sound evidence they probably have never considered, can change their minds.
But the approach cannot be to "disprove" one holy book in terms of another holy book. Inevitably there are differences in dogma or they would not be two different holy books. So for someone to attack the Koran on the basis that it contradicts the Bible, for instance, would just feed the ideological intransigence that you speak of.
But debunking some aspect of the Koran based on history, science, logical inconsistencies, and things of that nature ... if I were a thoughtful follower of Islam, these are legitimate criticisms I'd welcome and handily dispense with, or else change my opinion.
If the debunker does not have a theological axe to grind, so that there is not even an implicit "my religion is better than yours" vibe going on, so much the better. Such it is for us atheists; general arguments against holy books apply to them all, and we would address any specific issue without any motivation to address a conflict with our own holy book -- seeing as we have none.
What happens when your holy book is totally debunked?
The first problem is, it is impossible to prove any "Holy Book" is false. The inability to prove something is true, is not proof it is false.
A person or group attempting to debunk another religions scripture comes across as someone grasping at straws in an attempt to prove their own "Holy Book" is true.
I disagree very much with The Christian Bible (all versions) The Torah (As it exists today) The "Book of Mormon" and nearly every other "Holy Book".
But I can not debunk nor prove any scripture I disagree with is false. That is not even my burden and I do know the more I attempt to prove any scripture I disagree with is false, the more tenacious the adherent will become in their belief it is correct.
Attempting to show a person their "Holy Scripture" is false is an excellent way to strengthen an adherents belief in it.
Going back to the original question.
What happens when your holy book is totally debunked?
ANSWER: It deeply reinforces my belief, that my "Holy Book" is correct and the proof is in how desperate the forces of evil are trying lead me away from it.
As Mordant stated, this would be a typical response. But in many cases, including mine, when one's "Holy Book" is debunking, one quits believing. I'm happy that someone had the fortitude to demonstrate to me that what I had taken as gospel (pun intended) was not true.
Interesting thread, because todays Q&A with Bishop Spong addresses the fact that there is no such thing as a perfect god or an inerrant Bible. What happens, as illustrated by the following quote, is that a religion becomes "dead" as people desperately hang onto outdated concepts, errant ideas and mistaken half-truths.
As Spong says
[LEFT]The problem with the church is that most of our clergy do not want to embrace new learning because they are not sure that their own faith will survive the process. Frequently, they blame their own reticence on what they presume are the fears of the lay people they serve. I see no reason why lay people cannot learn anything that I have learned. I think we clergy regularly insult the intelligence of the people we serve. I am also convinced that any God who can be killed by new knowledge or new insights ought to be killed, for clearly such a God is a human creation. Imagine the idiocy of anyone feeling that he or she must protect God from new human knowledge!
Truth does not die in the confrontation with new knowledge but it dies when we act as if truth can be captured inside the time warped and time bound concepts of any human form. The human perception of truth is never the same as truth and that perception is never static. There is no such thing as an inerrant Bible or an infallible pope! A living religion must always be interacting with unfolding truth.[/LEFT]
Sadly, we can look at fundamentalist Christianity of what happens when someone's Holy Book is totally debunked, as the Bible has been time and time again. People simply refuse to believe the facts, retreat into a past fantasy world of sorts, which is harmful because we see it breeding personal as well as social irresponsibility. Certainly, in many ways, Christianity is a DEAD religion, based on outdated and inapplicable concepts and ideas.
I am sure too that there is a financial interest as well, and I say that not to bash anyone's religion, but simply to point out a fact. In America, religion is big money. And a less scrupulous pastor or clergyman will want to keep up any illusion necessary which puts dollars into his pocket. This is not conjecture, but known fact, as illustrated by the Long list of charlatans we have discussed on these threads in the past.
That being said, the bottom line is, an Illusion must be kept up to keep the followers involved. I know many people personally who, sadly enough, will not do anything but deny all facts that the Bible is imperfect and Errant. Confronted with overwhelming evidence, they retreat into their fantasy world and insist that their particular holy book cannot be anything less than authored by god.
Maintaining this illusion is simple: deny...censor...and shield god from the truth, truth which disproves him. To do this, simply teach the followers WHAT to think as opposed to HOW to think. Easier done than said.
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What Holy Book is immune?
