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How is what we WISH for a factor of whether or not it is real?
I suspect I'm agreeing with you when I say that wishing for something doesn't make it so.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Fact is, God does exist.
No, your wish is, God does exist -- unless and until you have factual empirical evidence to prove it. It is your job to prove that god exists, not mine to prove that he doesn't, for yours is the extraordinary claim.
I suspect I'm agreeing with you when I say that wishing for something doesn't make it so.
No, your wish is, God does exist -- unless and until you have factual empirical evidence to prove it. It is your job to prove that god exists, not mine to prove that he doesn't, for yours is the extraordinary claim.
God does exist. The empirical evidence we have is the universe. Without a cause, nothing exists.
God does exist. The empirical evidence we have is the universe. Without a cause, nothing exists.
The question is why do you wish he didn't exist?
That presupposes that time and causality has always been as it is now. It presupposes that the universe is material and isn't merely an illusion. It presupposes your particular god when there is no reason to do so over many other speculative concepts of god. It presupposes many other things.
You might as well say that the universe is a turd that came out of a giant space elephant. That is no less justified a statement.
My birth certificate is from Illinois but I suspect that I was really born in Missouri and smuggled across state lines. I was willing to go along with the wishful thinking about god for a long time but at some point it had to actually jibe with reality and my "god given" brain. I actually wished for the evangelical Christian version of god, I would have been very happy for that God to have existed. I was his to lose. But he did ultimately have to live up to his own billing. That would require that he (1) exist and (2) cared in some meaningful way about my existence and (3) demonstrate that caring. There is no evidence that any of those things was ever the case.
That presupposes that time and causality has always been as it is now.
No. It presupposes that people will logically consider that if we have something that exists, it has a cause.
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It presupposes that the universe is material and isn't merely an illusion.
Even if it were an illusion.....what caused the illusion?
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It presupposes your particular god when there is no reason to do so over many other speculative concepts of god. It presupposes many other things.
No...it evidences that there is a creator. I'm not using the subject of causality as any kind of an indication of who that God is.
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You might as well say that the universe is a turd that came out of a giant space elephant. That is no less justified a statement.
Ok. If that's what you want to use as an explanation...so be it.
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My birth certificate is from Illinois but I suspect that I was really born in Missouri and smuggled across state lines. I was willing to go along with the wishful thinking about god for a long time but at some point it had to actually jibe with reality and my "god given" brain. I actually wished for the evangelical Christian version of god, I would have been very happy for that God to have existed. I was his to lose. But he did ultimately have to live up to his own billing. That would require that he (1) exist and (2) cared in some meaningful way about my existence and (3) demonstrate that caring. There is no evidence that any of those things was ever the case.
He does exist. The fact that he hasn't lived up to your expectations is irrelevant.
No. It presupposes that people will logically consider that if we have something that exists, it has a cause.
Viz, you are phrasing this wrong. "Everything that begins to exist must have a cause" is the standard argument. The way you have it phrased implies that God either doesn't exist or him(it)self has an ontologically distinct cause, which I am sure is not what you mean...
You really ought to abandon this one, as it is a non-starter. If everything has an external cause then God has a casue. If God does not have to have a cause then neither does anything else. If God could be eternal, so could matter/energy. You can argue that the universe we observe appears to have a beginning, but what is beyond that singularity cannot be known so it is not evidence for anything, simply a question mark.
well as far as the OP goes the allure is backed up not directly by god belief or curiosity but being part of an evolutionary process that is all about evolving into something else. Plus as far as the memory goes it doesn't matter. People go to work ...now when they go home do they waste their time remembering work stuff? no not really they earned the occasion for home and thats that. So memory in life is simply attaching work to the afterlife which is fully illogical to a point, these are soul confusion issues and what is soul. Profound male female relationships would be something on its own. So anyway theres no mystery going on here at all. All yuh need to do is look at the butterfly and all that very unique evolving it has, thats how this organization of life thing is set up, stages and passing through doorways..its a job and theres prob another in a different way if it can be handled ( I'm referring to OP and following off track comments...so if I get a what?...what are u talking about...weirdo alert..oh wow...well..its called focus and paying att to the thread development.
Last edited by macpherson; 07-30-2013 at 09:01 PM..
Reason: added an extra sentence
Viz, you are phrasing this wrong. "Everything that begins to exist must have a cause" is the standard argument. The way you have it phrased implies that God either doesn't exist or him(it)self has an ontologically distinct cause, which I am sure is not what you mean...
You really ought to abandon this one, as it is a non-starter. If everything has an external cause then God has a cause. If God does not have to have a cause then neither does anything else. If God could be eternal, so could matter/energy. You can argue that the universe we observe appears to have a beginning, but what is beyond that singularity cannot be known so it is not evidence for anything, simply a question mark.
-NoCapo
Cue the 'alpha-Omega' ploy - everything has to have a cause - except God, who is exempt from all the rules.
The fact is, Visio (and I'm sure I have explained this before) that a potential for the emergence of matter need not have to be 'made' but itself could cause the emergence of matter. However, the appearance of a fully developed thinking cosmic being from nowhere, let alone it never needing to come from anywhere is a theory I don't have enough Faith for.
And, even if there was some sort of creative Mind behind the universe - and I for one don't particularly object to the idea (apart from it not seeming feasible) - it has nothing to do with the god of the Bible. I am confident that god does not exist and I do not deny that I am rather glad about that.
I know you have heard this before, but then what caused "God" to exist?
He doesn't have a cause. He existed before time began, before the universe began.
You may disagree with me and insist that he had a cause...and that's fine. I'll merely ask what caused the cause? Or the cause that caused the cause? At some point there had to be an uncaused cause.
ME This movie, powerful as it is, states that the earth is only 6000 years old. In that, it loses all of its credibility.
HER Read the Bible. We (scientists) THINK we know everything, but I know that's not true.
ME Do you actually believe the Earth and/or Universe is 6000 years old. Actually scientists readily admit that they don't know everything and are willing to change their conclusions when new evidence is found. On the other hand theists believe they DO know everything because "God did it", no need to find another explanation.
HER To answer your question, yes, I believe the earth is only a little over 6,000 years old. I know that scientists find artifacts, etc. and say they're so many millions of years old, and I just have to let it go. The truth is, we don't know how long a "year" was from the beginning of time. How could people live to be 400 or 900 years old???? But we are not meant to know or understand everything and I accept that. I don't agree with your comment about theists believing they know everything because "God did it", because if they truly do believe in GOD, and they have studied the Word, God TELLS us that we aren't meant to know everything. We have to have faith. Do I ever wonder about things? Absolutely!! I hope I can remeber to ask God about all those things when I see Him! I'm always curious!
ME There are certain FACTS that scientists know. The Earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old. The Earth was formed AFTER the sun, and we are one of billions of planets in our galaxy, which is one of billions of galaxies in the Universe. We can actually see...See More
This is a Facebook conversation I had recently with a theist friend of mine. This amply demonstrates the mentality present in the minds of those who have been raised to answer “God” without question. I was asking my wife, who knows her as well, how our friend could rationalize these statements, especially with her being an ex-teacher. My wife insightfully answered “Fear”. She’s afraid of questioning her faith so much that she is willing to dismiss scientific evidence, out of hand.
That's a knowledge stopper. So we are not to know the age of the Earth. Oops, too late. I also wish I could see more of that little conversation.
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