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What's to say he didn't just leave things to take care of themselves afterwards? What if I told you that many of the coincidences, miracles, or otherwise were mostly the actions of people, not a divine force? I mean, we have various organizations like the CIA and such doing behind-the-scenes for governments, and on the smaller scale any play requires stage crew. And what if I told you psychic phenomena was probably the explanation for any supernatural occurrences?
It's mostly just us out here. But those in control, are in control of cosmic energies. That said, something existed before us humans, so behind existence or non-humans doing about the same thing on the existential level.
What about this theory? Instead of the who crap about a Creator running our lives, maybe life is more like a play, with a crew running things? Would this be easier or harder to swallow?
But, I thought that is what "He" did do...create everything on auto pilot...
with convenient Laws...of Attraction, Karma, so it just all works according to
Basically...sowing and reaping and vibrations...repelling and attracting.
God doesn't 'run' me...only if I ask and believe maybe then, ok...
I have asked Him to stick His finger in the fish tank of this Dimension for me, so to speak.
It is my view that a non-existent god, an absentee god, and an indifferent god are all one in the same for practical purposes. They are all irrelevant to my day to day existence.
A coy, ineffable god, hiding or maybe visible only in the corner of your eye, a god of vague synchronicities, is not far behind.
Someone who claims to love and care about you but requires an archeological dig to "know" in an even fragmentary and uncertain way, and then a great deal of imagination to fill in the gaps, doesn't really love and care about you. Sorry. Ladies, how many of you would let your significant other get away with hiding behind the newspaper or its modern equivalent, the computer in the man-cave, 24/7? Even if he paid the bills? No, I didn't think so. And even that self-absorbed and indifferent sort of husband is easier and more satisfying to know than such conceptions of god.
For me, it was "all-or-nothin' - no halfway romance will do". Either the Bible is a reliable source of information and god is a reliable bulwark of love and protection and enlightenment, or not. Hence the attraction to fundamentalism. Hence the departure. Never saw the point of halfway measures like liberal or new-age god-concepts.
But that really makes you still a fundamentalist. Just a fundamentalist atheist.
The point is, this world doesn't work in black and white. Good kids also break toys on occasion. Bad people sometimes privately run charities. So where do you come up with all or nothing approach?
An absolute control freak God doesn't work because there'd be no point to existence (i.e. you're supposed to join up the fundamentalist church and be a good fundy punk, but there's God running everything and also predestination, so apparently you are already gonna do it, removing all value from this "decision").
And absolutely no God (I'm operating on the premise that matter must be created, and whatever did the creating is by definition "God". But you won't understand the implications of this) means we all should be standing in a great white void, except there'd be no "us" either. There'd be no white either, or even black. The complete nothingness of nonexistence is an abhorrent and unimaginable condition.
Why would you choose either one? They suck.
So instead we're saying, mebbe God didn't create the universe but it's here and it's clear, get used to it. Someone's backstage crew here, and that's why I can touch this lamp and not have it disintegrate in my hand.
Ah, darn it, that last paragraph when you suddenly brought up the Bible...that
I don't follow all so much...esp the OT.
I'm so sorry I can't talk to you, Mordie about the God made up in the Bible.
Lemme tell ya, I know God up close and personal...I chuckled..."He" doesn't "require an archeological dig"...
NO WAIT...."HE" DOES!!!
However, it is a very deep dig...into your heart.
Bec that's where "He" is.
Pretty corny, eh?
I'll say.
Pretty corny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
It is my view that a non-existent god, an absentee god, and an indifferent god are all one in the same for practical purposes. They are all irrelevant to my day to day existence.
A coy, ineffable god, hiding or maybe visible only in the corner of your eye, a god of vague synchronicities, is not far behind.
Someone who claims to love and care about you but requires an archeological dig to "know" in an even fragmentary and uncertain way, and then a great deal of imagination to fill in the gaps, doesn't really love and care about you. Sorry. Ladies, how many of you would let your significant other get away with hiding behind the newspaper or its modern equivalent, the computer in the man-cave, 24/7? Even if he paid the bills? No, I didn't think so. And even that self-absorbed and indifferent sort of husband is easier and more satisfying to know than such conceptions of god.
For me, it was "all-or-nothin' - no halfway romance will do". Either the Bible is a reliable source of information and god is a reliable bulwark of love and protection and enlightenment, or not. Hence the attraction to fundamentalism. Hence the departure. Never saw the point of halfway measures like liberal or new-age god-concepts.
But that really makes you still a fundamentalist. Just a fundamentalist atheist.
It's not possible to be a fundamentalist atheist. There is one kind -- the kind that doesn't believe in any god(s). There is no "doctrine" beyond that. The atheist Bible is two words long: "God Isn't".
My attraction is to simplicity, clarity and lack of cognitive dissonance. As a child, I simply didn't know where to look for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
The point is, this world doesn't work in black and white. Good kids also break toys on occasion. Bad people sometimes privately run charities. So where do you come up with all or nothing approach?
Some few things seem pretty clear to me ... the "nothing" side of the god question is no god. How do you have a god who is sort of there? He either is or isn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
An absolute control freak God doesn't work because there'd be no point to existence (i.e. you're supposed to join up the fundamentalist church and be a good fundy punk, but there's God running everything and also predestination, so apparently you are already gonna do it, removing all value from this "decision").
Agreed, although not solely for the reason cited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
And absolutely no God (I'm operating on the premise that matter must be created, and whatever did the creating is by definition "God". But you won't understand the implications of this) means we all should be standing in a great white void, except there'd be no "us" either. There'd be no white either, or even black. The complete nothingness of nonexistence is an abhorrent and unimaginable condition.
Maybe, and maybe not. It seems more practical to focus on that we are here, rather that not, and we appear to be on our own at the moment. We can have interesting conversations about why that is and who or what, if anything, is "responsible", but I regard these as essentially unresolvable questions. I lean a certain way, you another, and we can have honest disagreements about that, but after all the dust settles we still have to get out of bed each morning and make sense of life and find purpose in it.
If you choose to find meaning through theistic beliefs, that's fine by me. You have to do what you have to do to get through the day. So long as you give me the room to do what works for me, we'll have no issues.
It's not possible to be a fundamentalist atheist. There is one kind -- the kind that doesn't believe in any god(s). There is no "doctrine" beyond that. The atheist Bible is two words long: "God Isn't".
The epitome of a fundamentalist attitude.
Quote:
My attraction is to simplicity, clarity and lack of cognitive dissonance. As a child, I simply didn't know where to look for it.
Some few things seem pretty clear to me ... the "nothing" side of the god question is no god. How do you have a god who is sort of there? He either is or isn't.
According to whom? Since when do you get to decide what God is or isn't . . . must or must not be, etc. Neither you nor I nor anyone else have any say in the matter. I am sorry your fundy religion filled your head with all manner of absurd and unrealistic expectations . . . but that was your fundy religion's fault . . . NOT God's.
The epitome of a fundamentalist attitude.
According to whom? Since when do you get to decide what God is or isn't . . . must or must not be, etc. Neither you nor I nor anyone else have any say in the matter. I am sorry your fundy religion filled your head with all manner of absurd and unrealistic expectations . . . but that was your fundy religion's fault . . . NOT God's.
Everything we know in the universe, absent of evidence to the contrary, follow the laws of logic and reason, one being that something either exists or it doesn't. Atheism is the belief that gods fall into the "does not exist" category. You obviously have come to the opposite conclusion, as fundamental as you claim we atheists are.
Let's say there is no god. When one starts off with zero conviction, IMO you are looking for some middle ground between atheism and theism. Most will say this is agnosticism (w/o knowledge).
The BBT does have oodles of evidence if you care to examine it. Deists may postulate a prime mover but that opens the infinite regression problem.
Quote:
What's to say he didn't just leave things to take care of themselves afterwards? What if I told you that many of the coincidences, miracles, or otherwise were mostly the actions of people, not a divine force? I mean, we have various organizations like the CIA and such doing behind-the-scenes for governments, and on the smaller scale any play requires stage crew. And what if I told you psychic phenomena was probably the explanation for any supernatural occurrences?
This is an argument from ignorance and that is not an insult.
Quote:
It's mostly just us out here. But those in control, are in control of cosmic energies. That said, something existed before us humans, so behind existence or non-humans doing about the same thing on the existential level.
What about this theory? Instead of the who crap about a Creator running our lives, maybe life is more like a play, with a crew running things? Would this be easier or harder to swallow?
The evidence out there tends to support the concept of randomness and pure chance. You are only really special to folk that know you personally, to the rest of the 7+Bn people, for all intents and purposes, you may as well not exist.
When a divine creator (that supposedly cares) is postulated, that is defeated by looking at reality and asking pertinent questions like, "why would he care what I do yet remain totally incapable to address say starvation in Africa"? And then the excuses begin.
This invariably brings in the freewill argument and even in RL, freewill is an illusion. All choices we make are influenced by external factors outside our control.
Since when do you get to decide what God is or isn't . . . must or must not be, etc. Neither you nor I nor anyone else have any say in the matter.
And yet you do.....Constantly over and over again.
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