Can you be a Christian capitalist? (America, mythology, church, atheist)

[Tricky D]

Is doing good not its own reward?
In the past few days I've tried to pinpoint what exactly makes American Christians different from European Christians and have reached the following conclusions:
- Nationalism plays a big part in it; A Jewish rabbi in Israel (born in the Netherlands) made the following comment about the Israelis: After Israel was formed in WWII we (the Jews who immigrated from across the world to settle in Israel) have stopped being Jewish and became Israelis. This rabbi based his philosophy on the fact that most Israelis have lost their Jewish identity because they have forgotten who Abraham is. He believes that real-politic (modern day problems in Israel; the Gaza) has clashed in such a way with religion that it somehow has been transformed in nationalism. This might explain why everyone who criticises Israel (or it’s politics) automatically is labelled an anti-Semite by most Israelis.
- The difference how Americans view socialism and how non-Americans see it. I mean the Jewish kibbutz from the 60’s does resemble communism (the destroying of the individual) yet was never considered a threat by the Americans who hate communism (simply because it is the opposite of capitalism).
I personally see Jesus more as a socialist than a communist or capitalist.
- Capitalism automatically leads to morally bankruptcy?

In the Netherlands we base our economics on the principle that we are all responsible for our wellbeing and prosperity, but in the 80's this changed to everyone is only responsible for his own individual wellbeing and prosperity. Reagan and Thatcher were big supporters of this philosophy which was introduced by Milton Friedman & the Chicago school of Economics*.
Generally this resulted in the philosophy that governments should not intervene with economics.
Unfortunately the same economic philosophy championed by Friedman, that everyone should be free to act in his best self-interest in a free economic market, also justifies the fact that leaders of mighty conglomerates, in their own self-interest, reward themselves with unreasonable high salaries, corporate stocks and other perks. These people have enriched themselves shamelessly and are even proud of it.
I guess that in the Netherlands we have no problem with putting a stop to the ever increasing salaries and other perks of our captains of industry.

I don’t think that Jesus would agree with nationalism and capitalism, but how is it possible that American Christian capitalists view themselves as Christians?
How does capitalism relate itself with Christianity?
Isn’t doing good it’s own reward or do Christians only accept Jesus in order to end up in heaven?

*He [Milton Friedman] adamantly argued that if capitalism, or economic freedom, is introduced into countries governed by totalitarian regimes, political freedom would tend to result. He lived to see some of his laissez-faire ideas embraced by the mainstream, especially during the 1980s, a watershed decade for the acceptance of Friedman's ideas in many countries. His views of monetary policy, taxation, privatization and deregulation informed the policy of governments around the globe, especially the administrations of Ronald Reagan in the U.S., Brian Mulroney in Canada, Margaret Thatcher in Britain, and Augusto Pinochet in Chile.

Source: Milton Friedman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another difference between American politics and Dutch politics is that in order to join our ‘religious’ party the Christian Democratic Appeal, nowadays, you don't even have to be a Christian. They find freedom of religion more important than Christianity, so you could say that they have shifted the balance from being a religious Christian party to a political party. They accept people with a different religion as long as they believe that freedom of religion is paramount.
As far as I know the American Christians have a strong right bloc, but are there also Christian leftists?

Our big 3 coalition parties (those who've generally been in power) have always been the CDA (Christian democrats) with the PVDA (social democrats) or the VVD (liberals) and we have many smaller parties like for example the Party for the Animals (animal right activists). So I guess that the Dutch have a better choice because we can support that party which supports our own individual choice the best, while Americans can only choose between parties with whom they only generally agree?

Since only 1 of our general coalition party the VVD adheres to the capitalist ideal and our CDA isn't a capitalist party I can safely say that the Netherlands isn't a capitalist nation.

[studedude]

Phil 4:11-13 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13I can do everything through him who gives me strength.



The fact that you are successful in a business venture does not mean you cannot be a Christian. We are not only stewards of what God has given us but where he has placed us. Of course we are to conduct any business dealings in a way that would honor Him. Why should Satan's group have all the money. Anything you put before God is wrong be it a business or a boar.

[KrisKr]

Originally Posted by studedude

Phil 4:11-13


The fact that you are successful in a business venture does not mean you cannot be a Christian. We are not only stewards of what God has given us but where he has placed us.

You can be Christian; but one must be understanding the tax system anywhere on the planet. As an secualarist it is easier to be pragamatic that way.

[Nikk]

Yes, you can be a Christian and a Capitalist. Christianity can hypenate with many things (ie. Christian Democrat, or Christian Republican, or Christian Jew, or Christian American...) Usually one defines oneself as two things when emphasising. So, a person can be a Jew, but say I am a Christian Jew, meaning they are born Jewish but have chosen the religion of Christianity.

But of course you do not have to be a Capitalist to be a Christian or be a Christian to be a Capitalist.

Yes doing good is its own reward. There is a satisfaction when you help your neighbor. Many people do this without being a Christian

But doing good things does not get you into heaven. That is a big fat lie. You can only get into heaven by accepting what Jesus Christ did on the cross as satifactory to bring you into relationship with the Father (Father God). So works do not get you into heaven, but they are evidence that you have a changed heart. So if someone says they are Christian yet do not do the things that Christ has taught then you have to wonder.

[MontanaGuy]

Speaking of nationalism it's interesting to note that many American Christians believe that the US is actually playing a major role in the unfolding events that will lead to the second coming of Christ and I can recall that people have occasionally posted passages from the Bible which they believe is talking about America on this forum. I think that there are many who have the opinion that nationalism and their Christian faith go hand in hand, particularly if they're Americans because they see this nation as being favored by God. I think our dimwitted President is one of them.

[goldengrain]

People will naturally twist and interpret the bible to suit their needs. Of course, they say that they do not do this, but it is human nature to rationalize their bad behavior rather than admit they are wrong. It is always convenient to have a religion that can be interpreted to support your personal views.

Christ said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. You can interpret this as his comment on how to deal with a political situation, but since today that often means corporate bureaucracy, I imagine this can also tell us to not let outer reality merge with your inner ideals.

But, he counters that with the verse about it being easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to get into heaven. That, too, has been interpreted many ways(the eye of the needle being sometimes thought of as a narrow entry into a town).

Then, in the Old Testament, there are verses which state God has blessed so-and-so with wealth, implying that wealth is a sign of God's blessing and, conversely, poverty is a sign of God's curse.

But then, it is more blessed to give than to receive.

Mt 6:24 - "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

Lu 6:24 -
"But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full.

Luke 14 -
12 And He also went on to say to the one who had invited Him, "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, otherwise they may also invite you in return and {that} will be your repayment. 13 "But when you give a reception, invite {the} poor, {the} crippled, {the} lame, {the} blind, 14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have {the means} to repay you; for you will be repaid at the R875 resurrection of the righteous."

I think, too, that Christ would have preferred something more Socialistic than strict capitalism. But the bible says nothing about storing enough wealth to be a cushion for you in your old age. In prior times, that was one reason why children were a blessing, because they were your old age insurance. Today, with so many people eating so many of the planet's resources, we could do with a better form of old age insurance.

Then, there are a lot of wealthy people who do give to charity, although probably not the 10% of their income, which supposedly should go to God.

My problem is with those in control who lay off huge numbers of people in times of an economic decline when they know most of those people will have a really hard time. But, then the business must stay competitive and if other businesses are cutting expenses this way a person would be forced to do the same.

With labor being so cheap in other countries (and don't these people deserve jobs?) socialistic Western nations are starting to reign in benefits for their people, otherwise not being able to compete on an international marketplace.

I do not think there should be suffering in the world, and if a person calls himself Christian he should be actively pursuing alleviating such misery as much as he can.
Christians are supposed to love their neighbors as themselves. It should not be a religion of convenience, to make people feel good and it should not be catering to and approving of a person's greed. It should make them feel a direct responsibility for others and be active participants in protecting animals and preventing global warming. Christians are supposed to be guardians of the world. That does not mean that we own the world to pillage its resources as we see fit, but that God owns the world and we are to cultivate its goodness and preserve it for God.

Many Christians wear their religion like the flag lapel pin and not truly living the life.

I believe the Lutherans are more liberal Christians. We do not seem to hear of them often. I think the mindless zealots are more organized and more political than religious. There leaders are hiding a political agenda behind the cloak of religion. It was strange, in the US, when Falwell died there was very little said about it. I think people are tired of being led through the nose by those hypocrites and may actually be starting to take their religion seriously. I have even heard that we have Christian ecological movements. I have never met such a person, though.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by goldengrain

I think, too, that Christ would have preferred something more Socialistic than strict capitalism. But the bible says nothing about storing enough wealth to be a cushion for you in your old age. In prior times, that was one reason why children were a blessing, because they were your old age insurance. Today, with so many people eating so many of the planet's resources, we could do with a better form of old age insurance.

I believe that the main problem here are the believers who only take their Holy Texts literally. Instead of the philosophy behind the rules they only stick to the rules because they do not want to 'add' to the Bible.

Then, there are a lot of wealthy people who do give to charity, although probably not the 10% of their income, which supposedly should go to God.

Like I said giving 10% is only the rule, not the philosophy.
I think it was Jesus' philosophy to NOT make any profit.
To only take what you need instead of taking what you want, which generally is always taking more than you need.

I believe the Lutherans are more liberal Christians.

What I understand from Protestants is that they have a strong work ethic, which could become a problem on its own; without work they don't see themselves as 'complete'.
I mean, you should only work to live and not live to work


Originally Posted by Nikk

Yes, you can be a Christian and a Capitalist.

If making profit is the aim of capitalism I then disagree.
A Christian can no more be a capitalist as a pacifist can be a Nazi.


Originally Posted by studedude

Why should Satan's group have all the money.

Why would a Christian even want more money (or power) than others?

[cncracer]

This question brings to mind the old question, if I like apples can I also like oranges? You are looking at two different things, and it would be the personal values of the viewer which might cause an issue not he two items. Religion is a personal view or belief in a mythology, while Capitalism is an economic system. Two separate issues.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by cncracer

Religion is a personal view or belief in a mythology, while Capitalism is an economic system. Two separate issues.

Not really, they are both lenses through which we view reality; they’re both philosophies to explain reality.
Decisions largely based on economics have consequences, just like decisions based on mythology.
The Pope who does not condone the use of condoms based his decision only on religion which has had terrible consequences for the spreading of Aids for the Catholics in Africa, S. America and Asia.

Is making profit then a Christian thing to do?
And if you are making a profit, what do you intend to do with it?
I find the motivation to make a profit so you can even make more profit a very un-Christian thing to do.

I mean some politicians of the Dutch political party the SP (Socialist Party) only take what they need from their salaries as politicians and donate the rest to their political party. Although most of them are atheist I find this very similar to what Jesus has done; not making any profit by only taking what you need.
And there are Liberal politicians of the VVD who sort of do the same by not wanting any government allowance once they stopped being a politician (stopped working for the government). Normally ex-politicians get a generous allowance for a certain amount of time so they have time enough to find a job.

[goldengrain]

Our personal morality, our philosophies of living, are very well informed by our religion. I do not believe our clergy would be very popular and church attendence would fall, if giving to the needy were stressed as much as it should be.

I think a society which does not provide adequate coverage for even basic things for those in a society will result in the attitude of cutthroat competition among many of its members.

Work is a good thing, but can be overdone which makes the person one-dimensional. People then tend to be valued only for their fortunes and not their qualities of character.

'Whoever has the most when he dies - wins.'

Whenever I contemplate a political issue, my assessment always includes - who will financially gain from this, and who will lose?

For example, global warming. We, in the states know that we will have to put more resources behind finding alternate fuels, but the people will always opt for the least polluting sources. The least polluting sources of energy will harm our energy industry, take them out of the loop, ruin their business.

So the government, often an arm of industry, just delays the research as much as possible until things reach crises proportions, and then will tell us that the only readily available energy sources will be the poorest choices, nuclear and biofuels and coal.

These will foster and reward large businesses with a reliable steady stream of income.

I will bet any US candidate for president will choose among these when he gets into office.

Morally, polluting the planet is wrong. Where money is concerned, though, morality goes out the window. It is the rare clergy who will really stand up for what is right in the US, and they should each be our conscience, our bellweather of ethics.