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The same can be said, of course, of virtually every other religious leader, but the Pope is an especially easy target and an especially egregious example just because of who he purports to be and the almost comical disconnect between Jesus' simple and straightforward teachings and the Rube Goldbergian machinery of which the Pope is Chief Cog.
Interesting way of putting it. I'd just say that if Francis is 'Chief Cog', Jesus was 'Chief Exec' back in the earlier days of the 'company'. Leaders are always 'Chiefs' I think. And with Chiefs you'll always having Indians to herd and get them to see the work and world as they do. It will be interesting to see if Francis does spread the difference between himself and other Popes. I see that he has removed a bishop from duties. Maybe a 'test' to see how the Curia reacts to his early changes? I kow the Pope tries to be and think Christ-like but really he may have to be a 'Machiavellian' at heart too if he wants to effect some change. Wouldn't be surprised if he had right next to his catechism a copy of 'The Prince' for bedtime reading ...;-)..
Because Pompey the Great had the support of the aristocratic Senate in Rome, Julius Caesar turned to the other avenue of power available, making himself popular with the mobs who were always useful in intimidating the Senators.
The setting is still Rome and the m.o. of Caesar is being employed in a modified, modern way by Pope Francis. He is out there in the public eye making himself extremely popular with the masses which will help intimidate the Church conservatives who might be thinking about trying to put the brakes on reform.
So Francis is already showing some Machiavellian understanding.
An ocean liner at full steam takes a very long time, and many miles, to come to a stop or reverse.
Francis is captaining the Good Ship Catholicism now but it's had 2000 years to build up momentum. I believe he's trying to change the ship's course and applaud what he's done so far. But it's going to take time before we see significant change.
And since only very old men get elected to Pope, it's a certainty that no one of them can effect enough permanent change to really matter. The worst case is that it will take one or two popes to undo changes that are seen as ill-advised.
That's pretty much my view of Popes -- no matter how "different" any Pope may seem to be, the difference between him and any other Pope is miniscule.
Yes. He is not changing doctrine, only choosing to emphasize different ones. That a simple shift of emphasis can seem like such a sea change is more a testimony to how various dogmas conflict than to his status as change agent. The idea of caring about the poor while hoarding wealth, or preaching forgiveness while still sustaining "Catholic Guilt" ... it is just cherry picking like all True Believers do.
Still, the importance of an attitudinal shift should not be discounted, either. Francis appears to be someone who would rather be happy than right. Maybe allowing doctrines to fall into disuse and disfavor and become the victims of indifference is the best way to retire them. They can be quietly killed off in an "official" way a couple of generations later, without doing so much damage to the RCC's conceit that its edicts are infallible and immutable. Just like they did away with Limbo and pardoned Galileo.
Still, the importance of an attitudinal shift should not be discounted, either. Francis appears to be someone who would rather be happy than right
Do you really think so? We technically are in the very early moments of Francis' 'reign'. Intellectually, I think he knows the Church is in very unsettled straits and territory right now. There are modern day cross-currents blasting through all that millenia of Church history. How to handle this? No doubt he has an idea or a set of ideas that he is playing with as he tries to move the 'battleship' to perhaps a new sea. Now i wouldn't mind if he was 'happy' but if it's that and being 'right' then I'd put the stress on 'right' since hopefully it would be in keeping with goals that he has for the Church. Good decisions certainly need to be made for an enterprise the likes of what the Church is involved in. Certianly there's a great deal of hard work ahead. I think it's going to be very tough for him. He just might have hard time being 'happy' anyway..He's got alotta souls to think about..;-)....
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So Francis is already showing some Machiavellian understanding.
Agreed! Anybody getting that 'high' knows everything about 'cloak and dagger' stuff....it's no doubt a requirement!
I like the guy. I was raised in a "fallen" Catholic family; right about the time I was born - last kid in a big family - my parents stopped going to church. When I was old enough to ask why, my dad said he'd be happy to take me to any church of any faith, but he would wait outside or return after services to pick me up. At 20 I had myself baptized as Christian, and at 34 I became a confirmed Catholic.
Fast forward almost two decades & I really make a lousy Catholic. I don't agree with the "punishment" some of their priests have rcvd; I question much of the Apostolic Creed; I'm solidly in opposition to the church's stance on homosexuality. And then along comes Pope Francis, unafraid to go against some pretty strict doctrines. I believe he is well aware that he may be perceived as a PR machine; but I don't think he gives a **** either way. I think he's sincere in his msg to followers of the RCC; sincere to all peoples of the world who might check out what he has to say; and maybe most importantly - his sincerity in his love for and relationship with God and man.
I searched the CD threads to see if anyone had brought up the Pope's msg last week. It is reported that he said to be joyful that we are not alone in the universe, and that science & technology will continue to prove this out. I have not been able to verify if he really did say that - all reports are from what I would consider very biased outlets. If true, kudos to him. While the Vatican has always been cryptic and careful in what they blow our way in terms of life on other planets, Pope Francis stepped out on the ledge. Very refreshing, imo.
=caphillsea77;32707507]Some questions on Pope Francis......
Have the actions and words of Pope Francis surprised you?
Are they a breath of fresh air?
If you have turned your back on Catholicism or Religion altogether has Pope Francis had you give a second look or thought towards it?
What do you think of Pope Francis compared with popes of the past?
What direction do you feel the Catholic church is heading in?
Would a modern pope influence the world's religions?
Please keep this thread mature and civil. Thank you.
We Catholics hold the position that Popes are Divinely inspired choices. The man GOD wants for that time in hustory.
He certainly is not from the mold of recent Popes, and I see that as a Good thing and God's Divine will. Changes, especially in breaking up the Curia clicks seems way over-due.
But that said Francis is a humbe and pious man, in a very difficult position and time. I WOULD NOT expect him to make the types of changes that the popular media is flaunting.
Have the actions and words of Pope Francis surprised you?
Are they a breath of fresh air?
If you have turned your back on Catholicism or Religion altogether has Pope Francis had you give a second look or thought towards it?
What do you think of Pope Francis compared with popes of the past?
What direction do you feel the Catholic church is heading in?
Would a modern pope influence the world's religions?
Please keep this thread mature and civil. Thank you.
I think he's the polar opposite of Benedict. It's said that when they elected Benedict, a lot of folks voted for Francis. If that's the case, I can see a big division within the RCC. Benedict was concerned with doctrine, while Francis is more concerned about social issues.
We have been told by catholics on this board repeatedly that sola scriptura is bad, because only the RCC can tell us what the Bible says. Yet....the way the RCC seems headed is away from doctrinal purity.
I think he's the polar opposite of Benedict. It's said that when they elected Benedict, a lot of folks voted for Francis. If that's the case, I can see a big division within the RCC. Benedict was concerned with doctrine, while Francis is more concerned about social issues.
Agreed. Both, of course, are 'theologians' but Francis does't apear to be very didactic in his theology as Benedict was.
He writes as benedict did but perhaps more in the vein of the Church 'in action'. From the looks of it, Francis is more of an 'activist' on the social issues you note. Perhaps as it should be. The change in the Vatican's behavor no doubt was coming. They could see the writing on the wall when it came to the troubling social issues pervading our world today. Kind of came at a good time for the Church if you ask me. Insititutions are no different than individuals when it comes to losing sight of goals. Francis, in my opinion, is trying to the right the ship and make its culture focus to put back the meaning of what it really means 'to serve'. He's throwing himself into the arena.
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