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It has been quite a while since I have posted a poll...and this one might easily be -- depending on one's outlook -- the weirdest or most contemplative of all. I am somewhere in between! LOL
In any event, it involves ones beliefs -- or not -- in an afterlife. To backtrack and explain...
I think we will all agree that Texas is very much a part of the so-called "Bible Belt" (a term first coined by famed journalist H.L Mencken, and in a very sarcastic and critical way) of which the majority of the population -- church going or not -- is -- or will define themselves as -- evangelical protestant with Southern Baptist being clearly the leading denomination, with conservative Methodists (formerly known as Southern Methodists before the re-unification of the church under United Methodist) being a respectable second...with some other "strict" denominations (e.g. Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Nazarene, etc), making up the rest of the majority.
Well, I am Southern Baptist...but not necessarily a "literalist" when it comes to Biblical interpretation and doctrine. For instance, I truly believe the Earth and life upon it was created by a God with a Divine Plan...but not that it was done in a literal Six Days; at least not in the way we define a "day" in as the way we generally speak of in our age, as in terms of a 24 hour period.
I also reject the notion that evolution and Creationism are mutually exclusive concepts. On the contrary I believe many things in the Bible -- while Divinely inspired -- were intentionally written/recorded, in a way so that many people who might otherwise not be capable of intellectually understanding/comprehending the miracle of Creation, could at least get the general idea. I mean, good lord (again no pun intended! LOL), if how the Earth came to be was put, say, into a written mathematical equation (assuming it could be done at all) -- it would make the one used on the chalkboard to lay out the original Atomic Bomb, look like kindergarten math. None of us could grasp it...much less those who lived in an ancient age, or even today who just don't have time to contemplate/reflect on such things...
I got into an argument with a friend a while back who IS a "literalist". He honestly -- or at least he said he did -- held the position that anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ is going to burn in Hell for all eternity. I asked him if this included people who lived in parts of the world who had no way -- for whatever reason -- of ever even HEARING of Christianty...and he said it did.
I could not believe it! I mean, eternity is, hells bells, eternity! It even eclipses the National Debt by about a googolplex and then beyond that! And THAT is not hay! LOL
As the old example goes: If a single bird picked up one grain of sand on the United States beaches, then carried it over the ocean and deposited it on the other side, then flew back to get another and repeat the process until all were on the other side? Then that would only be the BEGINNING of eternity.
I asked him, in effect, so you are saying a Loving God is going to is going to pass this kind of sentence -- tormented by fire and demons -- forever and ever -- upon some poor soul (no pun intended!) because they didn't get down on their knees and make a public production of "accepting the Lord"?. That living a good moral life and living up to say, such things as following the Golden Rule, and being kind and charitable and etc, to others means NOTHING at all?
Yep, he believed it! Sure did. I just could only express that such a God as he believed was NOT the one I knew...but that the one he believed in was a sadistic monster...
Ok, I know I am running on, so here is the poll topic:
What are your beliefs concerning a literal Burning Hell? In some ways this one might belong on the "Religion" forum. But, as explained in the opening statement, I wanted to get an idea of how my fellow Texans feel about it all, as so many of us natives from a generation back at least, have likely been confronted with this question...whether or not in private consideration, or in a formal setting...
BTW -- This is a multi-option poll (meaning you can check more than one answer!).
Gee, not sure this belongs on a State forum, but whatever...
Yes, so I live in Delaware now. I was baptised and confirmed in Texas, and was a steady communicant in Episcopal and Lutheran congregations around the State (in terms of Lutheran, I might do well to emphasise NOT LC-MS, but rather forerunners of the present day ELCA, formerly Lutheran Church in America, and American Lutheran congregations -- it makes a difference, as anyone who knows enough to decode the alphabet soup will know).
So, I voted "Other". Frankly, notwithstanding the theological centrality of the Resuurection to Christianity, I'm not too preoccupied with the nature of personal survival after physical death. I'll resist getting into a long explanation of my thoughts about this, since it goes beyond the remit of the OP question. However, my beliefs about Hell represent a mixture of universalism and traditional catholic doctrine as understood in Anglicanism. My first premise is that the entire nature of the Godhead is based in Love. I don't think the Deity tortures or malignly destroys. However, humans can alienate themselves from God, rejecting His essential nature, i.e. Love. When they do this - at some point definitively embracing evil and darkness - they consign themselves to a hellish state of being: one ultimately of despair, isolation, darkness, and hence of suffering.
Now, within the context of my faith as a catholic Anglican, I also subscribe to a three-fold model of the Church: the Church Militant here on earth (the company of the living faithful); the Church Expectant (the faithful souls who continue their journey to the final perfection of union with God after physical death -- what RCs denominate as Purgatory, and Eastern Orthodox call Paradise); and the Church Triumphant (full union and communion with God, in perfect peace and light -- i.e. "Heaven").
So, I reckon that in the personal judgement that follows death, the outgrowth is a state in which we continue to grow into communion with God. We can't say how long that takes, because the "hereafter" is outside our linear time. Maybe it's like a moment of intense transformation; maybe it's like a continued long journey with the gradual dawning of greater clarity.
Now, it is in this idea of the Church Expectant or Purgatory that in my view the hope of universal salvation lies. Nothing is impossible for God, and when all is laid bare there is no longer the same issue of free will that marks our present existence. Perhaps for those who have ontologically turned away from God, the experience of Purgatory is an intensely painful but transient one -- sorrow and repentence can be extremely painful but transformative. I also believe that Christ's life, death and resurrection affect the entirety of humankind, so the "innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same" are applicable to all human persons.
OK, so that's my take on things insofar as I am able to explain them in a Christian context.
Then that would only be the BEGINNING of eternity.
Since Eternal is a physical nature of that life process which has no beginning nor ending, being timeless.
So how can anything which has a know beginning be eternal since it can not have a timeless nature.
Science says Energy can not be created nor destroyed, but it can change forms. So that would raise the question then how could the bodies of time, space, energy and matter that originated from the rapid expanse that formed the observable universe have anything but a finite nature? [Ex. the expanding universe]
Quote:
Nothing is impossible for God,
While nothing is impossible to him that believe, then it must be possible for God to lie.
=doctorjef;33264756]Gee, not sure this belongs on a State forum, but whatever...
Yes, I agree. And said so above that I was a bit unsure about where it should be posted. However, because Texas IS (religiously speaking ala' the subject) a conservative state of the "Bible Belt, that the intent was to get how TEXANS felt about it all.
Quote:
Now, it is in this idea of the Church Expectant or Purgatory that in my view the hope of universal salvation lies. Nothing is impossible for God, and when all is laid bare there is no longer the same issue of free will that marks our present existence. Perhaps for those who have ontologically turned away from God, the experience of Purgatory is an intensely painful but transient one -- sorrow and repentence can be extremely painful but transformative. I also believe that Christ's life, death and resurrection affect the entirety of humankind, so the "innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same" are applicable to all human persons.
This was a great post, DocJ, and the bolded part above pretty much sums up my own thoughts. That is, as you say, an -- albeit painful -- "transitory" afterlife experience -- yet one which ultimately ends with forgiveness and redemption. I am not a Catholic, but their doctrine which includes the existence of "Purgatory", is pretty much the way I see it as well.
And again, I realize this thread may be one that doesn't belong on a state forum. Not the least of reasons being that I am sure a lot of people will feel uncomfortable actually posting personal commentary as to their own religious beliefs. So I apologize to those. My reason for doing so at all was that I was doing a little research on another subject and came across a public opinion poll which indicated people in the South (which included Texas for regional purposes in isolating regions of the country for study), were most likely to believe in a literal Hell. Thus, I decided to see if that finding might square with the thoughts of those on the Texas forum.
If this thread were to be closed, then I would not take offense in the least. I can understand.
Your "Other" choice, which I selected, said "Please explain," and so: I believe that God will ultimately deal with all people in a way worthy of the eternal Creator of the Universe. I decline to speculate as to what that may be. If there is indeed a literal Hell for some, we will see when the punishment is imposed, in a way that we now cannot, that it was a result worthy of the eternal Creator of the Universe. Because we do not have the wisdom or perspective of the eternal Creator of the Universe, it is futile to speculate as to what he "should" do or what we would do "if we were him" and that sort of thing. One of the great mistakes is to envision God as some sort of Celestial Daddy who must conform to our notion of the perfect parent, rather than as the mysterious and unfathomable being he is ("My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways," as he says in Isaiah).
I attended a Southern Baptist seminary and attended Southern Baptist churches for a number of years. I really can't see myself ever setting foot in a Southern Baptist church again.
BTW, I'm not from Texas but am a native Arizonan. I do like George Strait, however.
Why dream up a hellish punishment? It's really telling about peoples personalities depending on what they think lies after this life. Not only for themselves, which is always a wonderful version of a heaven, but what lies for the rest of mankind that doesn't agree with them. (Some sort of torment, be it brief or eternal)
How could one live happy with oneself knowing they helped send others to a fire filled, torturing after life? Or a purgatory of sorts? Seems a bit sickening to me to have an afterlife plan for those who don't believe as you do or maybe are I'm guessing gay, etc. Humans are so quick to harm others, even in thought. What a shame. Or a sham. Or both.
=deadwood;33275585]Since Eternal is a physical nature of that life process which has no beginning nor ending, being timeless.
While nothing is impossible to him that believe, then it must be possible for God to lie.
This one goes back to the old classic paradox of "If God can do anything, can He make a rock so heavy he can't lift it.?"
Hell, I don't know the answer to that question...but at the same time, I don't accept that it can be used by a certain type of atheists (i.e. those type who go beyond simply not believing...but to make a point to ridicule belief in general) as a weapon in their own theological arsenal.
The fallacy -- at least IMHO -- is to appeal to the understandable tendency of humans to think of God in human terms. That is to say, taking advantage of the fact that human options are limited simply because we are limited in our grasp of "how things work", and are naturally incapable of thinking outside of this box/barrier.
The best way I could possibly answer that question (which is -- at best -- a trillionth of what the real answer is) is that Yes!
God CAN make a rock so heavy he can't lift it! Of course! But in the NEXT nano-nano-second? He can be capable of lifting it... if that is His Will to do so! And this cycle continues into infinity!
Is it possible for God to lie? Yes, I suppose so. But the real question is DOES HE lie? Or has/does HE...?
Anyway, time to hit the sack and crash! G'night, y'all!
Former Texan here. Moved North after Marrying a Dakota girl.
In the winter time I still think of Texas and thinking how lucky up here and don't have to mow grass from September to June.
Back to the Question: I answered yes...but
I believe there are levels of Hell, the upper levels being the least severe. I also believe that Hell is not necessarily eternal and many will eventually reach heaven. Sort of similar to the Catholic concept of purgatory.
I also reject the notion that evolution and Creationism are mutually exclusive concepts.
Well, I was born in Texas, although I don't live there now (often wish I did!) and have lived all over the country.
But as it was the place of my birth, I still consider myself a Texan, at least in part.
As for the line of yours I quoted above, I agree completely. It so happens I am not a believer in gods, but I have studied religion my whole life both academically and in a personal way.
I have always felt there is no disconnect whatsoever when it comes to believing both in a creator and in evolution.
Whether or not a god or gods exist in some form or fashion somewhere in the cosmos or some dimensional realm is simply more than any human knows.
What we CAN say with certainty is, even if there is a god or gods, and if such a being or beings is/are responsible for the creation of the universe of living matter, then for whatever reason, god or gods have seen fit to utilize the processes of evolution as a device for the growth and development of their creatures over time. Evolution actually happens. And it is a very elegant system.
As for Hell, I--like any other human--do not know if there is an afterlife of any kind, or a "soul", but I don't personally believe in a Heaven and Hell paradigm as a mechanism of rewards and punishments for the way one's life was lived on Earth.
I tend towards the belief that this life is "it" and all we have. It is certainly all we know we have, so we should make the most of it. I can't and won't live worrying about what may or may not happen after I die (aside from pondering it on a philosophical level or engaging in discussions such as this from time to time.)
Perhaps there is some kind of energy within us or emanating from us that survives beyond death, but we don't know. If such a thing does happen, I don't feel that our consciousness survives.
The idea of divine rewards and punishments based on either our actions or our beliefs is bad theology in my view. What I would believe is much closer to a karmic mechanism in which we reap what we sew. If we are full of hatred and malice - assuming the existence of an afterlife at all - that wouldn't simply end with death, and indeed we would continue in the hellish existence that such hatred and evil-mindedness naturally puts us in (alienation from the Divine Nature, which has the character of complete love). Therefore, it could only be through the overpowering love of God that such a state could be rectified. Hoping in the divine mercy, we may thus hope that the state we call "Hell" is ultimately empty. This has, I think, been a hard thing for humans to grasp, however, because it offends our ideas of retributive justice. It's hard to imagine Hitler attaining to Heaven, and might easily strike us as blasphemous. However, for a Christian, IMO that is to put limits on the the Love and Mercy made manifest in the Sacrifice on the Cross.
In any event, Purgatory/Paradise/the Church Expectant is viewed as a one-way journey toward the fullness of communion with God. The concept of the Church Expectant is well-expressed by some language in the traditional Anglican/Episcopal prayer of intercession used at the celebration of the Eucharist: "and we also bless thy holy name for all they servants departed this life in thy faith and fear, beseeching thee to grant them continual growth in thy love and service." Similarly, the catechism in the Episcopal Church's current (1979) Book of Common Prayer addresses the question of why we pray for the dead: "because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is."
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None of us could grasp it...much less those who lived in an ancient age, or even today who just don't have time to contemplate/reflect on such things...
And this cycle continues into infinity! 
