Christian Claims Explained and De-Mystified (Jerusalem, ghost, Pilate, Jewish)
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Tired, personally, I find it unlikely that the disciples (who seem to be described as quite the bumbling bunch, devastated by the death of their leader) had the wherewithal to concoct a spur of the moment plan to deceive the world with a resurrection story.
Do you find the flying reanimated corpse version to be more compelling then? If so, what is your personal conception of that which is unlikely? Notice that the disciples of Jesus moved quickly and decisively to gain possession of the body of Jesus. A move which clearly took the chief Jewish priests by surprise. And the "bumbling" apostles drop completely out of sight, their activities unknown. Or at least unmentioned. That they DID journey to Galilee after the execution however is recorded in the NT. How much of a plan does this require, REALLY? Their friend is being crucified, and they have no means to stop it. They DO have the means to return his body home to his family for burial however. The real question is, did the disciples secretly and under the cover of darkness transport the body of Jesus home to his family with the intention of returning and perpetrating a hoax? The chief Jewish priest seemed to think that was their intention. Or did they, during their absence, come to discover that the mysterious empty tomb had already raised the rumor that Jesus had arisen from the grave? In other words, are we dealing with a designed conspiracy or a conspiracy formed and directed by the events? And I have no definitive answer for that, I am afraid.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
If I were to accept any of the biblical account as being true, it would be in the context that something unexplainable (to them) happened after the death of Jesus. Maybe they really saw something that made them think Jesus was alive. Or perhaps, in their grief, some of them imagined it. Or maybe, none of the above, but something about Jesus' teachings was compelling and powerful enough that they inspired a movement to spring up surrounding them. I dunno.
For these earliest Christians, those not involved with and unaware of the true disposition of the body of Jesus, the desire to believe and/or to convince others that they were among those chosen to witness the risen Jesus must have been a very strong and compelling. Everyone wants to be among specially chosen; the hierarchy. And in fact the Gospels report stories of sighting by individuals who don't at first realize that they are in the presence of the risen Jesus, but only reach that conclusion later. People who WANT to believe will find a way to believe. It's still going on today.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
That the stories got embellished and/or convoluted as they were passed on by people who had more of a political agenda, seems much more likely to me than that a grand conspiracy was hatched in the hours immediately following the death of Jesus.
The story of Jesus, and the meaning of his ministry, have absolutely grown, evolved and been embellished over time. That is undeniably true. If it seems unlikely that Christianity, one of the world's great religions, could have risen from nothing more than a lie, consider the religion of Islam. Moderator cut: Deleted
Last edited by june 7th; 05-29-2014 at 03:14 PM..
Reason: Please refer to Sticky. Bashing of other denominations is not permitted or tolerated.
I know that is your point, but it doesn't bear on the question, as far as I can see, of why the supposed conspirators would ever let it be known that they had access to the body (and thus an opportunity to secret it away) if they were really trying to deceive people into believing that Jesus had risen?
Joesph went to the Roman governor to ask for and gain possession of the corpse of Jesus. A very public act. How does one go about keeping that a secret? The corpse of Jesus disappeared while in the possession of his followers, and the corpse was never publicly seen again. This was simply an open fact.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
That's a lot of information, but what bearing (if any) does it have on what I asked?
Because what you asked was: "Also, what bearing on your point does the book of Acts being written anonymously have?" The author of Gospel Luke and Acts was a believer, but not a personal witness to any of the events surrounding the death and supposed resurrection of Jesus. He recorded the information as he heard it and understood it. With nothing to hide.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
By the way, you say that the author of Luke/Acts was linked to Paul who, as you said, referenced, in 1 Cor, the 500 people who were still alive that could supposedly attest that Jesus had risen. You then said,
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Paul was NOT HIMSELF present at this "event" however, and no accounts by the "above 500" themselves exist, or have ever been known to exist. Nor are there any other accounts which would serve to support Paul's claim of the "above 500."
So, if Paul wasn't in on the conspiracy, and was a "true believer" with "nothing to hide", why would he claim that there were witnesses if there weren't?
Paul believed himself to have been a witness to the risen Jesus, some years after Jesus was executed and at a time when he, Paul, was gravely ill and being tended to and prayed over by a Christian man. As a result of his experience in Damascus Paul became a confirmed Christian. Paul was a man who had visions, and tended to believe that his visions and dreams were real, messages from God.
2Cor.12
[1] It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
[3] And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth).
Paul also was clearly acquainted with the apostles, and the apostles WERE claiming that they and others were witnesses to the risen Jesus, according to the Gospels and Acts. Where Paul got his 500 story is unknown. No one else wrote of such an event.
My point is that the Joseph's tomb proved to be empty of the body of Jesus on Sunday morning because the apostles and some other of his early followers had already moved the body elsewhere, beginning probably not long after they finished preparing it. And since we are told specifically that the apostles journeyed to Galilee right after the execution, it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that they transported the body of Jesus back to his home and family for burial as a matter of respect for their deceased friend. This is the part that was not generally known however.
So lets see. The Apostles carried the body of Jesus for five or six days? Secretly transporting a rotting body? Under the cover of darkness for 68 miles. I suppose they went though a lot of ice and flashlight batteries.
So lets see. The Apostles carried the body of Jesus for five or six days? Secretly transporting a rotting body? Under the cover of darkness for 68 miles. I suppose they went though a lot of ice and flashlight batteries.
I do not think you are correct.
I suggested that the apostles quietly slipped away under the cover of darkness, not that they journeyed only by night. Did you miss the part where they heavily wrapped and coated the body of Jesus in ONE HUNDRED POUNDS of sweet smelling aromatic spices first? (John 21:39-40) I do agree though, that a certain amount of urgency would have been present.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 05-29-2014 at 03:55 PM..
I suggested that the apostles quietly slipped away under the cover of darkness, not that they journeyed only by night. Did you miss the part where they heavily wrapped and coated the body of Jesus in ONE HUNDRED POUNDS of sweet smelling aromatic spices first? (John 21:39-40) I do agree though, that a certain amount of urgency would have been present.
There is no John 21:39-40.
But John 20:6 says this: Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
I didn't miss the part of the 100 lbs of spice.
Bodies bloat after a day in warm weather. Things expand and sometimes pop. Nasty.
I work with law enforcement so I have some knowledge dead bodies. Spring time in Israel can be quite pleasant. Temps in the 80s.
Carrying a 200lb body would slow a group down, even if they used a donkey. Could have taken a week to traverse those 68 miles on foot, leading a donkey.
But John 20:6 says this: Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
I didn't miss the part of the 100 lbs of spice.
Bodies bloat after a day in warm weather. Things expand and sometimes pop. Nasty.
I work with law enforcement so I have some knowledge dead bodies. Spring time in Israel can be quite pleasant. Temps in the 80s.
Carrying a 200lb body would slow a group down, even if they used a donkey. Could have taken a week to traverse those 68 miles on foot, leading a donkey.
My mistake. Of course I was referring to John 19:39-40. John does indicate that some linen was left behind. And why would you suppose that they would carry the body on a donkey, when an animal drawn cart or wagon would have been much more well suited to the task? A body left out directly in the sun on a hot day might very well begin to bloat quite quickly as the heat causes the gasses to build. A body heavily wrapped and kept covered and out of the sun in the bottom of a wagon would not fare so badly so quickly, however. Especially if kept cool with bags of water. An unpleasant task perhaps, but doable. And clearly a task which would need to be begun asap.
The cloth which was wrapped around Jesus head was left behind. Quite the oversight if you ask me.
Too many loose ends and assumptions on your part.
Let's go ahead and look at the two passages in question.
John 19:
[39] And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
[40] Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
John 20:
[6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
[7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
John 19 depicts one hundred pounds of myrrh and spices being wound into the wrappings. One hundred pounds of spices would necessarily have required a very large amount of wrappings to contain it all. A very well wrapped corpse. It also indicates that a rather large amount of wrappings would necessarily have been brought to the tomb to insure that the job was done thoroughly. You seem to find the possibility that unused wrappings may have been left behind to be a significant "oversight" and "a loose end." Are you as skeptical when it comes to the "Night of the Living Dead" story, whereby hoards of dead people came up out of their graves and wandered the streets of Jerusalem? (Matt. 27:52-53) What of the main claim of Christianity, that the corpse of Jesus came back to life and flew away? Can you find any reason to be skeptical of these stories? Or is your skepticism only piqued by perceived "loose ends?
Do you find the flying reanimated corpse version to be more compelling then?
I get the sense we're talking past each other, here. You're determined that the only answer to why Christianity became a power-house religion is that the disciples hid Jesus' body with the intent of deceiving people. I've already explained what I find more likely, but you come back with this question, which indicates to me you didn't actually read the post you responded to. And, as I said in my first post, I don't have a horse in this race any longer ... which means I'm no longer a Christian, because I don't find the "reanimated corpse version", as you so charmingly put it, compelling.
I think it's highly unlikely that we'll ever know exactly what transpired in those days following Jesus' death. And I also think it's unlikely that you'll be able to use the words written by people who were apparently convinced that Jesus was alive, to prove to people in the here and now who believe Jesus rose physically, that he didn't. Good luck.
It is an interesting take on what could have happened. Personally, I did a lot of research on the bible back when I was a very dedicated Christian . I very much used to be Christian. I had read the entire bible once, but the New Testament probably 8 or 9 times straight. I read 2 pages a night, every night, for 20+ years. If you look at my bible back then (which I still have), along with my Concordance, they look like college textbooks where you were allowed to have them for an open book tests. I had several different color highlights for different things. I could quote scripture with the best of them.
I had been a Catholic, but had left the Catholic church because I felt it focused too much on rituals and doctrine rather than the word of God. Still, I was a very devout Christian trying many different Churches, trying to find one that I felt followed the word of God, but also one that I felt comfortable with...not just one that seemed to follow what I believed was the true word, but also one that I guess practiced what it preached, giving aid and help to the poor, the homeless, the sick, etc.
During this time, I was receiving a good bit of flack from my friends in the Physics department. There was only 1 other Christian in it. I decided to go back and give a good detailed account of the old testament to try to put to our observtions of the universe.. Well... of course that failed.
Let me put this bluntly for all the Christians reading this. There is absolutely no way the story of creation is true. Not given what we have in the fossil record, what we know about DNA and Mitochondrial DNA. It just doesn't match what we see.
Now I had always just assumed that the story of creation was a parable much like Jesus used to teach. But that's when my knowledge of the bible started to hurt me. If the story of creation isn't true... If we believe the fossil record then we are decedents of a mixed Homo erectus, Homo denisova, Homo floresiensis combined with a limited inter species breeding with Homo neanderthalensis (for all Non-Aftican people).
So then, where did original sin come from. Clearly there was no forbidden fruit for Adam and Eve to be tempted to eat. So if there is no original sin, why do we need to be saved? Is it because of us breaking the 10 commandments as well as several hundred other laws mentioned in the Old Testament.
I read through the Old Testament again with a little different glasses on. The next problem I had was how the Arrogant, Intervening, Jealous, Vengeful, God of the Old Testament is the same loving God of the New Testament. I could not rectify genocide, rape, murder of children, and racism of the Old with the New. Finally, we hear so much of free will. How much free will do people have when God directly intervenes such as hardening Pharaoh’s heart. Was Pharaoh meant to go to Hell. Am I? Was I written into the book of life and at some point I'll repent and go back to God? Or was I never written into it so my free will is not there as I can never achieve redemption.
I know a lot of Christians have answers for everything I just stated. It was nearly 30 years ago when I stopped believing. Since I've stopped I've actually taken an interest in world religions. Fortunately I've gotten to go to Israel, Iraq, Jordan, and Egypt. It is truly amazing to see the differences in beliefs around the world. I don't think I will ever understand why so many people need a God. It is almost like football or baseball where you cheer for your own team and put down the other teams. Same thing in politics, or our legal system. Are we destined to have to reduce all our decisions down to a boolean operation of true of false?
OP – Sorry if this seems a little off topic. The bottom line is that you have an interesting story. I personally don't believe the bible to have any authoritative information. If it does match archeological history, it does so out of coincidence, or because it was compiled and written after the fact.
There are historical records of a Man named Jesus. There are also many different historical records of others that were crucified that claimed to be the Messiah. I simply believe the bible to be a fictitious account passed down by word of mouth untl changed modified to match the Old Testament prophecies. That to me seems more likely than the stolen body theory.
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