The biggest misconception about atheism - The Moral highground. (soul, hell, Mormonism)
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Maybe I should stop visiting this forum, because I am tired to the back teeth of the way some theists view atheism and atheists. I strongly feel we need to put straight some of the deep misconceptions about atheism particularly pertaining to theists having the moral high ground. This is NOT the case.
Not picking on these comments in particular, we get these kind of comments regularly. But this thread is inspired by a few comments made in the last few days, and the news that has since followed.
In response to the very recent school shooting in Oregon, a few people assumed the shooter must be atheist. That he "committed suicide to escape punishment because there is no afterlife" and "we may be raising Atheist kids who have no belief in God and some of these Atheist kids end up shooting in schools."
Turns out the shooter was a devoted, regular church going Mormon.
Quote:
Jared Michael Padgett was a straight-arrow kid who had a fascination with guns, planned a career in the military and was deeply devoted to his Mormon faith, those who knew him say....
....Earl Milliron, a close friend of the Padgett family, said Jared planned a career in the military, was a devout Mormon and was ordained as a deacon at age 12. He was so dependable at church, Milliron said, that the bishop appointed Jared president of the deacons' quorum.
"His father never told me he was worried about Jared. And I never suspected that he had serious problems," said Milliron, 86, who has known the Padgett family for more than 25 years and belongs to the same church ward. "I refuse in my mind to believe that Jared Michael who did the shooting is the same Jared Michael I knew."
Padgett's oldest brother had served in the military in Afghanistan and the younger boy was planning the same path, Milliron said. Jared Padgett was in the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps program and was proud to be seen in his uniform.
Padgett's parents had separated about five years ago, and the father raised the couple's six children, Milliron said. "I saw Jared at church every Sunday," he said. "He was very quiet, I never saw him angry, he was extremely even-tempered, he was always at the best possible behavior."
Michael Padgett and his ex-wife Kristina said they are at a loss for how and why the shooting occurred. The letter states they taught Jared Padgett and their other children the values of compassion, forgiveness, patience and love in Jesus Christ.
This idea that atheists have no moral grounding is such insulting nonsense.
Theists do not hold the moral highground.
It's about time people started to understand that a disbelief in god does not equate to bad people.
If anything we are the antithesis of that. Many atheists reject religion precisely because of the immorality they see in it.
I count myself as a Humanist. I base my morals on reason and respect for others and I believe in empathy and compassion. I am a good person and not because I think I will be punished in hell. Hell is a nonsense fairytale used to scare kids.
Atheists find meaning, beauty and joy in the world through our own means.
Unlike almost all religions, not a single war has ever been started in the name of atheism.
Atheists are amongst the most peaceful people on earth.
Almost all serial killers were or are religious...
Bruce Lee murdered 26 people. The Flint Journal article says "Bible reading was his only consolations" and he quoted the bible saying "Matthew 6, verse 24 no servant can be a serve of two masters."
David Berkowitz called the son of Sam, murdered more than 10 women. The newspaper said "He called himself a born again Christian"
Berwid The article in the Flint Journal quotes him "I was searching the bible and soul searching and I decided God wanted me to do that."
The Yorkshire Rapier "was on a divine mission and felt he had been chosen to hear the word of God reported the Flint Journal. He murdered 11 girls.
Miller a serial killer had that thing called faith, believed in Jesus. The Flint Journal article says he was always carrying the Bible.
Sampson Kanderayi, a mass murderer called The Ax Killer, killed more than 30 people. The newspaper reported "he did it to appease evil spirits." He was a Christian
Watts, The Sunday Morning Slasher killed 11 women. This article says he did it "to eliminate evil spirits".
Jared Michael Padgett was a straight-arrow kid who had a fascination with guns, planned a career in the military and was deeply devoted to his Mormon faith, those who knew him say....
....Earl Milliron, a close friend of the Padgett family, said Jared planned a career in the military, was a devout Mormon and was ordained as a deacon at age 12. He was so dependable at church, Milliron said, that the bishop appointed Jared president of the deacons' quorum.
"His father never told me he was worried about Jared. And I never suspected that he had serious problems," said Milliron, 86, who has known the Padgett family for more than 25 years and belongs to the same church ward. "I refuse in my mind to believe that Jared Michael who did the shooting is the same Jared Michael I knew."
Padgett's oldest brother had served in the military in Afghanistan and the younger boy was planning the same path, Milliron said. Jared Padgett was in the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps program and was proud to be seen in his uniform.
Padgett's parents had separated about five years ago, and the father raised the couple's six children, Milliron said. "I saw Jared at church every Sunday," he said. "He was very quiet, I never saw him angry, he was extremely even-tempered, he was always at the best possible behavior."
You quoted the wrong part. It's more like this.
Quote:
Jared Michael Padgett was a straight-arrow kid who had a fascination with guns, planned a career in the military and was deeply devoted to his Mormon faith, those who knew him say....
....Earl Milliron, a close friend of the Padgett family, said Jared planned a career in the military, was a devout Mormon and was ordained as a deacon at age 12. He was so dependable at church, Milliron said, that the bishop appointed Jared president of the deacons' quorum.
"His father never told me he was worried about Jared. And I never suspected that he had serious problems," said Milliron, 86, who has known the Padgett family for more than 25 years and belongs to the same church ward. "I refuse in my mind to believe that Jared Michael who did the shooting is the same Jared Michael I knew."
Padgett's oldest brother had served in the military in Afghanistan and the younger boy was planning the same path, Milliron said. Jared Padgett was in the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps program and was proud to be seen in his uniform. Padgett's parents had separated about five years ago, and the father raised the couple's six children, Milliron said.
"I saw Jared at church every Sunday," he said. "He was very quiet, I never saw him angry, he was extremely even-tempered, he was always at the best possible behavior."
Violence has nothing to do with the presence or absence of religion. You can't 'blame' religion, any more than you can 'blame' atheism.
The child was under tremendous pressure to perform, to be perfect, and he just snapped. He wasn't allowed to just loosen up, so he bottled stuff up, until it exploded.
Also, to the person above me. Carrying a Bible, or attending church does not make you a Christian. Following Jesus does. And short of being in a very sick church, your religion will generally not go out and tell you to kill people. That's a copout, an excuse. Anger at the world kills people. Being emotionally disturbed kills people.
The only religion that actively tells people to kill people is Islam. Judaism/Christianity talks about holy wars, but they weren't glorified as part of the core scripture. They were seen as failures in discussion.
"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Versus
Quote:
The second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."
Bad followers of Christianity? Maybe. Bad Christianity? Not really.
Bad followers of Islam? No, they followed the scripture. The 'holy' scripture itself was messed up.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 06-14-2014 at 04:14 AM..
Well, there we see it. Billy is a Christian. If he is a good kind person, that is entirely due to the influence of Jesus in his life and is entirely to the credit of religion. Johnny is an atheist. If he is a good, kind person, then he is only doing it to make atheism look good.
Johnny is an atheist. If he killed some women, - is it any wonder? Atheism with its emphasis on meaningless nihilism is going to guarantee acts of senseless violence. If he doesn't believe in divine judgemet, why shouldn't he kill anyone he wants to?
Billy is a Christian..or he may have claimed he was, and he may even have thought he was and that he was doing God's will, but he wasn't REALLY a Christian and was in fact acting like an atheist..probably Satan had some influence in his life. Because being an atheist makes one inherently bad, whereas a Christian is known by their fruits. Only the good fruits is considered Really 'Christian' fruit.
Double standards. Automatic assumption of the moral high ground for Christianity.
After Bulma's reply I am really worried about Cruithne's back teeth ;-)
The basic problem is that no one wants to hear or see anything that violates their self-image, nor their preconceptions about the Other. The first impulse is, tsk tsk, look at what all this godlessness and disbelief in the afterlife hath wrought. Then it turns out the kid actually DOES believe in heaven, so now let's just ignore all that and focus on what Mormonism did to him seeing as how he was under all this pressure to perform and be perfect and so just snapped. Bulma is not a Christian or a Mormon given that he follows a personal religion but even Bulma wants to defend the notion that religion should not think it is totally benign (unless it's a religion like Islam that you REALLY object to).
Folks, every one of these cases is a unique mix of one or more of the following: personality disorders, outright mental illness, parents in over their heads, religious ideation, youthful hubris, naïvite and angst, etc etc. Not to mention, as the father of that boy gunned down in the Santa Barbara shootings / stabbings so eloquently and powerfully put it, the craven, corrupt, cowardly politicians who refuse to act on gun control legislation despite the vast majority of Americans being in favor of it.
There is plenty of things we could easily change to greatly reduce these tragedies. While I happen to think that religious ideation doesn't help, I'm at least willing to admit that if religious ideation weren't there for the fevered imaginations of these sick kids to latch onto, they would probably latch onto something else. The answers are not with finger pointing, as if the correct ideology would fix anything. The answers lie in the realms of mental health care and gun control.
Good points above. Bulmabriefs144 implies that it is a "copout" to assume someone who identifies himself as a Christian and carries a bible is a "real" Christian.
I think it fair to argue that it is a far greater copout to point to every self-identifying Christian who behaves atrociously and simply say "that person isn't a real Christian."
If we can only differentiate "real" Christians from "fake" Christians after the bullets are flying or the freezer full of human heads is discovered, then the risk of any Christian being "fake" is perpetual, and all you're really doing is removing the "Christian" label from the perpetrator post hoc.
Several of our church families have students at that school. Somehow I missed the references between the shooter Jared Padgett being portrayed as an atheist in the news.
Violence has nothing to do with the presence or absence of religion. You can't 'blame' religion, any more than you can 'blame' atheism.
Absolutely agree. And even if there is an unmistakable and undeniable correlation, this does not show causation; many other factors go into it.
But ironically, the more we pick on each other (gross understatement, I know) over matters such as this, the more frustration we create out of thin air - and I'm sure every last one of us can agree that does have a lot to do with violence!
Almost all serial killers were or are religious...
Bruce Lee murdered 26 people. The Flint Journal article says "Bible reading was his only consolations" and he quoted the bible saying "Matthew 6, verse 24 no servant can be a serve of two masters."
David Berkowitz called the son of Sam, murdered more than 10 women. The newspaper said "He called himself a born again Christian"
Berwid The article in the Flint Journal quotes him "I was searching the bible and soul searching and I decided God wanted me to do that."
The Yorkshire Rapier "was on a divine mission and felt he had been chosen to hear the word of God reported the Flint Journal. He murdered 11 girls.
Miller a serial killer had that thing called faith, believed in Jesus. The Flint Journal article says he was always carrying the Bible.
Sampson Kanderayi, a mass murderer called The Ax Killer, killed more than 30 people. The newspaper reported "he did it to appease evil spirits." He was a Christian
Watts, The Sunday Morning Slasher killed 11 women. This article says he did it "to eliminate evil spirits".
Your premise is not proven.
David Berkowitz converted to Chrisitanity in 1987, ten years after his arrest.
Six examples do not make a comprehensive statistical study. If you want to cite a peer reviewed study that demonstrates this, I will consider your view.
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