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We all go to the same place. Only the route and degree of comfort changes.
In materialism, the perceived ineffectuality of righteousness justifies that classification, but in theism, one would hardly define the lands of sin and righteousness as the "same place." What it means to have things like "comfort" also varies between materialism and theism.
The majority of human beings today cannot possibly understand their consciousness. We are simply not equipped to relate to someone who:
1.) would go out of his way to inflict pain and injury on a crippled or deformed fellow being without any awareness that there was anything wrong with such behavior;
2.) would believe that cripples should be treated badly because one should not be kinder than the God who made them crippled;
3.) would not feel remorse at having been utterly ruthless to helpless and defenseless victims and would actually admire any individuals who are like them;
4.) would not have the ability to sympathize with another human being; and
5.) would not feel shock or horror at the wholesale slaughter of babies.
Bottom line . . . we would not understand or be able to relate very well to our ancient ancestors at all.
First if all, I thought you were talking about the human population today. All you have mentioned is present in today's supposedly so advanced society.
Secondly, other than indicated by the willing actions of the people that carried out the 'orders' given by the god in your Bible, there is little or no indication that sympathy and empathy were non-existent in ancient times.
In materialism, the perceived ineffectuality of righteousness justifies that classification, but in theism, one would hardly define the lands of sin and righteousness as the "same place." What it means to have things like "comfort" also varies between materialism and theism.
Whatever metaphysical imaginations we overlay our humanity with (or not), we are all human and our needs are all the same. We all desire and try to obtain "comfort" because we all share in the discomforts of the human condition. Whether we are honest about it or use $25 theological words to describe or obfuscate those hopes, dreams and aspirations that give us hope, they are at root still the same. The avoidance of physical, psychological and emotional pain; the obtaining of physical, psychological and emotional satisfaction; understanding in an unashamed way our own nature; communion and healthy interconnection with others; being at peace with ourselves and others; making meaning and accomplishing purpose. None of these are altered one whit by religion or irreligion; they are only clarified or confused by them.
All you are describing is the tension between two caricatured representations of two different prescriptions for effectively achieving the very human goals and meeting the very human needs of all people, regardless of which prescription that they follow.
Materialists, in your view, perceive ineffectuality in righteousness -- implying that it is a misperception. That is not even a fair characterization of what all materialists perceive, much less a description of materialism's central premise. It seems like it's more an opportunistic oversimplification designed to paint materialists as inherently unrighteous. While it is true that many unbelievers were once believers, and initially began to question their faith because it didn't work for them in various ways, and you could describe this as a rejection of the efficacy of right-living as per certain doctrines, it would be misleading to do so. Because for example I still conduct myself by the same morality and ethics I have always had -- the only ones anyone has -- nothing there has changed, only my motivation has improved because I'm not being "good" because I "ought" to or because of the consequences if I don't; I'm doing it because I choose to and have internalized those values for better reasons than "because god said so" or "because the Bible says so".
I have never met an unbeliever, materialist, or freethinker who seeks to cast off the bonds of morality and run wild in the streets, or to engage in your artificial construct known as "sin". It's true that we want flexibility and objectivity, but not for the purpose of conducting sex orgies, okay? It is to follow actual evidence wherever it actually leads, even when not pleasing or intuitive to us. Because we believe in the virtue of dealing in reality as substantiated by actual evidence.
What "benefits", if you will, does one gain for "believing"?
There is surviving, procreating, eating and being merry.
There is learning, expanding awareness, developing higher or
more refined senses that naturally make you attuned to an
Inner Current, soon to be perceived in the outer world, also.
Believing is like blind faith...toss those out for direct experience of
what is not known with theses oh so limited senses, and oh so limited
intellect, I say.
Venture inward so there is no longer belief, but knowing.
The benefits of knowing creates an exhaustive list...which includes
Joy, wisdom, peace, power, spontaneous effortless love, fearlessness...
to name a few of the bennies.
... receiving in our souls the Essence and Substance of God....
This is why I don't advocate believing...receive this knowledge of God, the Creator, this
Spiritual Being, whatever your name.
Know this Divine Love, seek it, research it, wonder about it, read
about it and ask for it...and see for yourselves!
Let's see, you have experiencing just simply the highest feeling ever or
experiencing...something less...why settle for less?
Seems only logical to me to go for the gold...why settle for bronze, even.
Anyway, I'm no Einstein, but I wasn't made to settle for less than what I could have.
This is why I don't advocate believing...receive this knowledge of God, the Creator, this
Spiritual Being, whatever your name.
Know this Divine Love, seek it, research it, wonder about it, read
about it and ask for it...and see for yourselves!
Let's see, you have experiencing just simply the highest feeling ever or
experiencing...something less...why settle for less?
Seems only logical to me to go for the gold...why settle for bronze, even.
Anyway, I'm no Einstein, but I wasn't made to settle for less than what I could have.
Great post.
Believing is of the mind and the mind is fallible.
With receipt of God's Divine Love, it brings to us faith... which is a knowing.
From the Prayer for Divine Love:
"Let us have such faith as will cause us to know that Thou art our Father and the bestower of every good and perfect gift, and that only we, ourselves, can prevent Thy love changing us from the mortal to the immortal."
You are seriously confusing and conflating population characteristics, abilities and accomplishments across huge eras and peoples with your supposed recounting of the capabilities of the people in the ANE. Intelligence is not the issue. That is genetic and relatively constant even through the long periods being considered. But knowledge and emotional states of mind (consciousness) are the relevant variables. The oldest books in the Bible date from approx 1500 BCE and describe peoples and cultures far more ancient in human evolution. They were definitely barbaric. Their skills aside . . . even the ancient Hebrews were barbarians and lacked many features we would expect from civilized human beings.
There are many factors affecting the state of mind of human beings . . . sociological, cultural, psychological, linguistic, etc. Most people do not realize that their perceptions and interpretations of reality do not come in a "standard model." We all tend to think everyone sees the world in standard ways. We do not. Our "learning" creates vast differences among us . . . even within the same culture and epoch. Language most strongly determines how we see and intellectually understand the world. Less evolved languages combined with very little "learning" limited our ancestors' perception, communication AND understanding of reality.
Our current English language is one of the most highly evolved and is capable of communicating very intricate and nuanced meanings and concepts. But the early languages of our ancestors were not. Still even they contained semantic concepts and understandings that are not necessarily transferable . . . even into our highly developed and nuanced language. Our sensibilities, values, mores, etc. back then were barbaric . . . even compared to some backward current civilized societies. Attitudinally they had significantly more barbarous consciousnesses. They cannot be considered even remotely comparable to civilized human beings today.
The majority of human beings today cannot possibly understand their consciousness. We are simply not equipped to relate to someone who:
1.) would go out of his way to inflict pain and injury on a crippled or deformed fellow being without any awareness that there was anything wrong with such behavior;
2.) would believe that cripples should be treated badly because one should not be kinder than the God who made them crippled;
3.) would not feel remorse at having been utterly ruthless to helpless and defenseless victims and would actually admire any individuals who are like them;
4.) would not have the ability to sympathize with another human being; and
5.) would not feel shock or horror at the wholesale slaughter of babies.
Bottom line . . . we would not understand or be able to relate very well to our ancient ancestors at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
First if all, I thought you were talking about the human population today. All you have mentioned is present in today's supposedly so advanced society.
Secondly, other than indicated by the willing actions of the people that carried out the 'orders' given by the god in your Bible, there is little or no indication that sympathy and empathy were non-existent in ancient times.
The wide diversity among human beings virtually assures that there will be some aberrations. What I described was a general characteristic of the majority. They literally all attributed EVERYTHING to God. There was no such thing as an accident or a natural disaster. Everything was God's Will. That is why there was no empathy for those afflicted.It was automatically assumed they were afflicted BY God on purpose and would not want to be kinder to them than God was.
What "benefits", if you will, does one gain for "believing"?
There are A LOT more demands upon me, which force me to be a better person, which are probably a benefit for others more than myself. I'm easier to get along with these days. If you think I'm snarky now, you should have heard me 5 years ago.
I've had to abandon a lot of illusions I held, like my ideas always being right just because I came up with them, and that God, if he exists, should share my same ontological values and assumptions, and rationalizing my selfish actions because they benefit me and I'm, like, a really good person at heart, so they must be okay, right?
I see things less and less through an ideological lens of conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat, MySide/HisSide, and increasingly through a set of assumptions that I would describe simply as Catholic. That has been one of the hardest changes, as I have to examine my political biases in light of Christ's commands to me. I can't complain about the annoying homeless panhandlers, but instead am commanded to give to them with both hands. I can't complain about the illegal immigrants, as I am called to help the stranger in my land, and to treat him as I would myself. I can't rationalize abortion away as a "choice," anymore than it is a "choice" to take any other human life. I can't support capital punishment anymore, despite how richly I may think some deserve to die, as I have to accept the radical possibility of redemption, and even more difficult, forgiveness. I'm a liberal now, as the opposite of liberal is stingy, and I'm conservative now, as the opposite of conservative is destructive; I've become a strange fish, a Liberal Conservative.
I'm called upon to see everyone I deal with, including, or especially, the people who really tick me off, or who disagree with me and so must be wrong, or the annoying person in front of me who doesn't know how to operate the self-service check-out at the grocery store when I am in a hurry, or the guy who cuts me off in traffic, as my brother or sister in Christ. Which is as radical an idea as I am capable of holding.
I'm commanded to follow God's orders, even if I really, really, really would prefer not to. And even if I fall short and go to eternal punishment for my failures, I still have to follow those commands, out of gratitude for the incomparable gifts of life, and consciousness, and the glory of the universe, and the definitive self-revelation of God in his Son, and His Sacrifice, and those I love, and even (perhaps especially) those I don't.
I can't say I'm a much better person, but I am somewhat more at ease with my life and feel more comfortable in my skin, much more so than in my 40-odd years as an atheist. I've been surprised to find that His yoke really is easy, and His burden light. AMDG.
These are personal results, your mileage may vary.
There are A LOT more demands upon me, which force me to be a better person, which are probably a benefit for others more than myself. I'm easier to get along with these days. If you think I'm snarky now, you should have heard me 5 years ago.
I've had to abandon a lot of illusions I held, like my ideas always being right just because I came up with them, and that God, if he exists, should share my same ontological values and assumptions, and rationalizing my selfish actions because they benefit me and I'm, like, a really good person at heart, so they must be okay, right?
I see things less and less through an ideological lens of conservative/liberal, Republican/Democrat, MySide/HisSide, and increasingly through a set of assumptions that I would describe simply as Catholic. That has been one of the hardest changes, as I have to examine my political biases in light of Christ's commands to me. I can't complain about the annoying homeless panhandlers, but instead am commanded to give to them with both hands. I can't complain about the illegal immigrants, as I am called to help the stranger in my land, and to treat him as I would myself. I can't rationalize abortion away as a "choice," anymore than it is a "choice" to take any other human life. I can't support capital punishment anymore, despite how richly I may think some deserve to die, as I have to accept the radical possibility of redemption, and even more difficult, forgiveness. I'm a liberal now, as the opposite of liberal is stingy, and I'm conservative now, as the opposite of conservative is destructive; I've become a strange fish, a Liberal Conservative.
I'm called upon to see everyone I deal with, including, or especially, the people who really tick me off, or who disagree with me and so must be wrong, or the annoying person in front of me who doesn't know how to operate the self-service check-out at the grocery store when I am in a hurry, or the guy who cuts me off in traffic, as my brother or sister in Christ. Which is as radical an idea as I am capable of holding.
I'm commanded to follow God's orders, even if I really, really, really would prefer not to. And even if I fall short and go to eternal punishment for my failures, I still have to follow those commands, out of gratitude for the incomparable gifts of life, and consciousness, and the glory of the universe, and the definitive self-revelation of God in his Son, and His Sacrifice, and those I love, and even (perhaps especially) those I don't.
I can't say I'm a much better person, but I am somewhat more at ease with my life and feel more comfortable in my skin, much more so than in my 40-odd years as an atheist. I've been surprised to find that His yoke really is easy, and His burden light. AMDG.
These are personal results, your mileage may vary.
And even if I fall short and go to eternal punishment for my failures, I still have to follow those commands, out of gratitude for the incomparable gifts of life, and consciousness, and the glory of the universe, and the definitive self-revelation of God in his Son, and His Sacrifice, and those I love, and even (perhaps especially) those I don't.
Something you might have overlooked, you must now also be concerned that your loved ones will fail and be punished forever. With such a burden placed upon me when I was a theist and the pressure of not angering my God and facing punishment here on Earth as well, my yoke is much lighter now that I'm an atheist.
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