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I'm just saying that we know nature is not eternal. SOMETHING caused this universe to exist. That much we know.
Once again: if the original dense energy of the universe is eternal, then nature IS eternal. So no, the possibility of nature being eternal can't be discounted any more than it's can be verified.
And since we don't know whether or not that original energy was (is...it's still here...it's you, me, your garbage can, farts, my chipped nailpolish, President Obama, everything) eternal, no we can NOT know nature isn't eternal, any more than we can know it IS eternal.
How do you know "something" caused this universe to exist? Because it's here? Does that mean "something" caused God to exist? Because he's here?
Can you demonstrate that it's impossible for there to be any eternal substance in the universe?
In the beginning! if the universe had a beginning then any and all things therein must have had a beginning.
Finite nature is known and observed in this universe and is defined as any life process or living substance which has a beginning and end. While our physical form is finite, the term mortal is used in reference to our life process.
Once again: if the original dense energy of the universe is eternal, then nature IS eternal. So no, the possibility of nature being eternal can't be discounted any more than it's can be verified.
So what?
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And since we don't know whether or not that original energy was (is...it's still here...it's you, me, your garbage can, farts, my chipped nailpolish, President Obama, everything) eternal, no we can NOT know nature isn't eternal, any more than we can know it IS eternal.
How do you know "something" caused this universe to exist? Because it's here? Does that mean "something" caused God to exist? Because he's here?
In the beginning! if the universe had a beginning then any and all things therein must have had a beginning.
"In the beginning" is something people wrote. I don't dispute the fact that in the Bible, as well as in various other religious belief systems/sects, "in the beginning" is often included by people writing or speaking to each other about their religion.
It is sufficient to know that it is here. Also, by nature, this includes reality itself.
Why is it sufficient to know that it is here? Because pantheism can effectively be proven empirically, and even the assertion that reality is an illusion doesn't actually change our perception of it. Why is it not necessary to know whether there was an origin point, you ask?
Because pantheism changes the premise of a God from "that which is the origin of reality" (necessitating a creator, and possibly a creator of a creator) to "that which is reality." As such, whatever we can see/hear/hallucinate is proof, even if it isn't real.
10-23-2014, 12:24 PM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
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Originally Posted by Vizio
I'm just saying that we know nature is not eternal.
And we are saying that actually you don't know -and science does not say such a thing.
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SOMETHING caused this universe to exist. That much we know.
Yes, thanks for the obvious!
Of course the term Universe is misleading and vague because what we mean by that is not what we see today as the Universe and its cause/s since what we see today is not the same as 1 billion years ago or 10 billion years ago and certainly was not what 'God' poooped out of nothing 6,000 years ago.
No model says that there was absolutely nothing and then the Universe was caused. None! I suggest you youtube the debate between Sean Carroll and William Lane Craig to get an idea of what can and cannot be said in this regard.
If there's a God, what triggered the beginning of God?
We don't know.
Hence, we don't know, assuming there is a God, that God is eternal either. At least if we're to apply your parameters to your own beliefs. (I.e., "If we can't prove that something doesn't have a beginning, then we can't prove it is eternal, so we have to assume it is NOT eternal and that something created it.")
And in fact, your question, "What triggered the beginning of the universe?", underscores my point. If nothing did, then the universe is eternal, and nature, a part of the universe, is also eternal.
Now of course, if "something" did create whatever created the universe, then nature, and the universe are NOT eternal. This is equally a possibility, at least as far as I can see things.
All this indicates that therefore, if we are to all subscribe your own logic and parameters, God and nature (if they can even be separable) are pretty much equally in the running as to which is the entity to follow and believe in.
And yet again: we don't know definitively either way. So once again (sigh): no, nobody can answer your original question...not even you.
If there's a God, what triggered the beginning of God?
Simple logic tells us that there HAD to be a first cause that was not caused. Do you not realize that? Does that not make sense to you?
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We don't know.
And in fact, your question, "What triggered the beginning of the universe?", underscores my point. If nothing did, then the universe is eternal, and nature, a part of the universe, is also eternal.
But it's not. We know it had a beginning.
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And if "something" did, then nature, and the universe are NOT eternal.
And yet again: we don't know definitively either way. So once again (sigh): no, nobody can answer your original question...not even you.
Actually..yes---as I said...we know the universe began at some point. Whether you believe it was 6000 years ago or 14.2 billion....it had a beginning.
Actually..yes---as I said...we know the universe began at some point. Whether you believe it was 6000 years ago or 14.2 billion....it had a beginning.
Absolutely so. The universe began at some point. From something else. Which may be eternal, or may not be eternal.
Or if you're saying there is no such thing as eternal, 2/3 of the religious world is going to be very, very upset with you. Be prepared for that.
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