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I always get amused by religious folks asking for prayers when someone is ill with a serious disease.
Why?
Why do you think that who ever you think is holy will intervene, when that same entity caused the disease in the first place?
As a non-religious person, I don't find it amusing when someone asks for prayer. It makes sense to me that people would seek that comfort in trying times and I would never make light of it.
I have even asked people, on occasion, to keep a specific situation in their thoughts. I knew that they would assume I meant prayer, and I was okay with that. I don't expect God to intervene, but I'm not convinced that there isn't something powerful about the collective thoughts of people -- whether it's in the form of prayers or simply holding someone in mind and hoping the best for them -- which might have a positive impact on the person being prayed for/thought of.
This is what makes most marriages fragile . . . a failure to recognize the need to understand what the other is doing and why. If the presumption of love were paramount in your evaluation and reactions to her (and vice versa) there would not be this resentment or sense of imposition. She genuinely cared about YOU and what SHE saw as a danger to you . . . even though you did not see it or agree with it. You couldn't care less about her delusional concerns for you no matter how genuine and based in love they were. That seems to be a prevalent trait among those who become atheist and denigrate the God delusions. You cannot seem to believe anyone genuinely believes the delusions . . so you react as if there is no genuine concern or love behind them . . . only some nefarious desire to impose their beliefs on you. Sad, very sad.
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Hey now ... gotta watch those hasty generalizations (we used to call them "Hasty G's" when I was on the debate team in college.)
Now, now . . . you know that "prevalent" does not mean ALL, Shirina.
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Oh, believe me, I know ALL too well that people genuinely believe in the "delusions" if such they are. That's the problem.
But where cupper is concerned, we should really face the facts in this case. Cupper was already an atheist as he was lying in his hospital bed. A priest would be useless. It's not as though a priest can come in and involuntarily convert Cupper to Christianity thus ensuring his place in Heaven whether he wanted to go there or not! No ... even if God really did exist, Cupper would have been doomed to hell. No priest could have saved him.
This is quite an absolute assertion that cannot possibly be known to be true, Shirina.
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His wife should have understood that. While I can't speak for anyone else's familial practices, it has always been my experience that, when visiting someone in the hospital, it's about making the ailing person more comfortable, bringing him things, being there to stave off loneliness and fear, and generally doing for the patient. It's never about going to someone's hospital room to foist your own wants and desires onto a person sick in bed. That just isn't done - not that I've ever seen.
Again with the "foisting upon" nonsense. It was an attempt to cover all the bases for someone she loved enough to care about his ultimate fate. He needed to do NOTHING but simply allow it to occur to assuage her fears and concerns about something he did not even think existed . . . his afterlife. Such unwillingness to accommodate her concerns was predictive of the lack of mutual love and the relationship's ultimate demise.
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Cupper's wife knew what his beliefs were. I could understand it if his wife begged and pleaded for Cupper to allow the priest to come in. But at the end of the day, Cupper's wishes should have been respected in this case. Bringing in the priest despite Cupper's wants was just as much a violation of his beliefs as refusing the priest was a violation of the wife's beliefs. So who wins here?
Why should religion always win out?
This is the issue . . . it was NOT a contest and no winner was involved. It was simply a matter of accommodating the genuine and real fears and concerns of what should have been a beloved wife about something cupper did not even think existed or mattered. Talk about the epitome of self-centeredness!
Last edited by MysticPhD; 11-12-2014 at 04:34 PM..
As a non-religious person, I don't find it amusing when someone asks for prayer. It makes sense to me that people would seek that comfort in trying times and I would never make light of it.
I have even asked people, on occasion, to keep a specific situation in their thoughts. I knew that they would assume I meant prayer, and I was okay with that. I don't expect God to intervene, but I'm not convinced that there isn't something powerful about the collective thoughts of people -- whether it's in the form of prayers or simply holding someone in mind and hoping the best for them -- which might have a positive impact on the person being prayed for/thought of.
Actually, now that you mention it, cupper ... my son was just released from the hospital a few days ago and is still going through a very difficult time. If anyone reading this thread wants to send some positive thoughts his way or say a prayer for him, that'd be great and I would appreciate it.
Actually, now that you mention it, cupper ... my son was just released from the hospital a few days ago and is still going through a very difficult time. If anyone reading this thread wants to send some positive thoughts his way or say a prayer for him, that'd be great and I would appreciate it.
You know it will be done, Pleroo. There are some powerful and sincere prayer warriors here in C-D.
Thrillobyte, I sincerely appreciate this post. You are the first praying person I have ever encountered that has stated that the kind of prayer that asks for a tangible result is useless. Wow. Every other person I have ever discussed this with would perform elaborate scriptural and logical gymnastics to "prove" that prayer does indeed work.
May I ask, how do you view the numerous Bible verses that do clearly state that our prayers will be answered?...by extension, how do you view the Bible overall?
Life's experiences always left me confused about the purpose/effectiveness of prayer, but somehow, for decades, I still believed in its power. There was a huge disconnect between what I experienced and what I believed. It was like looking at something red, but declaring and believing with every fiber of my being that it is blue.
As a former fundamentalist, it was all or nothing for me. When there was finally a "straw that broke the camel's back," and I could no longer believe in inerrancy of the Bible, everything about god and Christ became a huge question mark (hence my self-description of humbly ignorant agnostic). That is why I am so curious about how you view the Bible. (Maybe this should be a separate thread, or even a PM)
Well, I appreciate the question and would be happy to answer, maybe even start a thread if my notorious reputation doesn't kill it right off the bat. But here's my story:
I was raised Catholic; became a born-again Christian at 20. Lived that way, I'd say somewhere between lukewarm and somewhat hot (but never "on fire") for the next 40 years; entered this forum in 2009 or so as a fundamentalist who believed in eternal torment; then started reading posts from preterists and universal redemptionists who showed me straight from the Bible that UR and preterism (all prophecy has been fulfilled) is the true way, especially after so many rapture dates came and went--I realized that all the rapture/tribulation/antichrist stuff was just hooey making a lot of prophecy gurus like Hal Lindsey fat and rich off our sweat. Ditched it all just like that.
In 2013 or so, as a newly formed UR'ist and preterist I started reading some heresy about the origins of the Bible and how Constantine orchestrated the whole Christianity thing by choosing among all the gods which god would be his official Roman empire God. It was a combination of a Druid god called Hesus and Christos (from Krishna). Hesus eventually became Jesus, owing to an anomaly in the Hebrew alphabet and Kristos became Christ, hence Jesus Christ based on an itinerant preacher from Galilee who was crucified and buried. All these wild legends and tales started getting built by Constantine's henchmen (primarily Eusebius, Constantine's "right hand" man) and scriptures started getting doctored to reflect all these growths in the Jesus legend.
Now, knowing the skullduggery behind how Christianity was manufactured in the 4th century by a bunch of powerful churchmen with Constantine's blessing, I realized that Jesus probably never said, "If you ask the Father for anything in my name he will give it to you." It's a dead giveaway that Jesus would never commit to making a sweeping promise in God's name that God could never keep. Passages like Mark 11:24 were obviously inserted to scriptures to attract pagans to join Christianity by making these phonied-up promises that this new god whose son was Hesus Christos would give them anything they wanted if they just became Christians. Then when prayers never got answered, all the bullS started pouring forth, "Well, you didn't pray with the proper spirit, you didn't have faith when you prayed, you're asking for things in the flesh" and all those other baloney excuses why prayer doesn't get answered.
So now I am a deist who believe in the Golden Rule taught by Jesus and other "holy men" : do good to others; love one another as God loves you. These are the two important things to take away from the Bible. Throw out all the rest--it's just man-made garbage.
Well, I dunnae about that. When you're in pain, your world tends to get really small. Really really small. I know from my own experiences that intense and lasting pain makes a person incapable of thinking or worrying about others, unfortunately. It's not a pleasant place to be - and I insist upon solitude when the pain is too bad because I don't want to expose anyone to my nasty, nasty mood.
Dunnae what kind of shape cupper was in ... or maybe he was drugged, who can say but Cupper? Medical issues can change a personality quite extensively as it does to me on really bad days.
But eh ... it's kind of silly for you and I to argue over Cupper's decisions so I'll just let this one go. Except to warn you about people in pain. Gotta tread lightly around them sometimes.
Actually, now that you mention it, cupper ... my son was just released from the hospital a few days ago and is still going through a very difficult time. If anyone reading this thread wants to send some positive thoughts his way or say a prayer for him, that'd be great and I would appreciate it.
I definitely will pray for him, sorry to hear that.
Now, now . . . you know that "prevalent" does not mean ALL, Shirina. This is quite an absolute assertion that cannot possibly be known to be true, Shirina. Again with the "foisting upon" nonsense. It was an attempt to cover all the bases for someone she loved enough to care about his ultimate fate. He needed to do NOTHING but simply allow it to occur to assuage her fears and concerns about something he did not even think existed . . . his afterlife. Such unwillingness to accommodate her concerns was predictive of the lack of mutual love and the relationship's ultimate demise.This is the issue . . . it was NOT a contest and no winner was involved. It was simply a matter of accommodating the genuine and real fears and concerns of what should have been a beloved wife about something cupper did not even think existed or mattered. Talk about the epitome of self-centeredness!
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Originally Posted by Shirina
Well, I dunnae about that. When you're in pain, your world tends to get really small. Really really small. I know from my own experiences that intense and lasting pain makes a person incapable of thinking or worrying about others, unfortunately. It's not a pleasant place to be - and I insist upon solitude when the pain is too bad because I don't want to expose anyone to my nasty, nasty mood.
Dunnae what kind of shape cupper was in ... or maybe he was drugged, who can say but Cupper? Medical issues can change a personality quite extensively as it does to me on really bad days.
But eh ... it's kind of silly for you and I to argue over Cupper's decisions so I'll just let this one go. Except to warn you about people in pain. Gotta tread lightly around them sometimes.
Point taken, Shirina . . . and I really wish something could be done about your pain, my friend . . . even if you are a heathen!
If anyone reading this thread wants to send some positive thoughts his way or say a prayer for him, that'd be great and I would appreciate it.
Absolutely, Pleroo.
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