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You're assuming the hypothetical includes a fiery Hell. That being the case, I can understand what you are saying. But, given the choice between death and living life as a robot in Heaven for eternity, I would take death and would be willing to say to God, WTF.
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Originally Posted by Cruithne
^^^
Exactly what Amaznjohn said.
There was never any mention of hell in Fry's story. You have projected hell on there yourself.
It's not real, never will be real.
This is a fantasy story, with a fantasy character in a fantasy environment that is...pure fantasy. Why shouldn't the response also be a fantasy? We are not dealing with reality here in any shape or form. You are taking it too seriously.
I'm not assuming anything. The hypothetical situation calls for Steve Fry to "walk up to the pearly gates and be confronted by God". I didn't create the scenario...I just read the link.
If Fry is at "the pearly gates" then, from everything I have ever known of what is taught about that, Pearly gates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, if you don't make it through, "hell" is a given.
Maybe I'm wrong...but that is how I've always understood it. Correct me if you know it to be different.
I don't believe for one second that Fry (or anyone else) would voluntarily choose to be tormented in pain beyond anything ever imagined by anyone for all of eternity just for the satisfaction of telling God off. If, given that situation, he really would do that...then he is every bit, actually infinitely beyond, how much of an idiot I could ever think he is.
Then after Stephen Fry is done with his one way chat with God and now understands that it's never entered the mind of God to do such atrocities , GldnRule steps up for his go and questions God why he's not sent Stephen Fry the gay atheist to eternal hell. Then GldnRule hears within himself the words booming loudly............. In name only.
They answered him, "We are Christians and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
I'm not in any way religious...and I never have been.
Also, given the way I have lived my life, compared to what I am aware of to be "the rules" for making it through "The Pearly Gates"...I already know I sure as heck wouldn't make it.
BUT...lucky for me (and Fry)...there is no such thing. OTOH...if there was such a thing, and I was there...I'd be the most schmoozing and repenting dude I could be...the last thing I'd be doing is insulting God and telling him off.
But it would make it sensible. Who cares about "just" or "good" when ending up in eternal torment beyond anything imagined hangs in the balance?
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I dare say that Stephen Fry won't let your opinions bother him.
No, I'm sure he won't. And if asked again...he'd probably still spout out the same pretentiously brash and moronic blowhole spew.
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Probably because they are sound ones. Do you expect us to keep coming up with new apologetics?
NAH!...it's the furthest from sound.
Whenever I have called bunk on someones claim that they would be so brave and brash that they would accept eternal torment rather than worship an "evil dictator" God...instead of trying to defend THAT, they invariably deflect to, "Because it isn't real anyway", after they realize they have just been called on how stupid and indefensible what they just said is.
We all know what everyone (including Fry) would actually do in that situation...regardless of whatever dumbstuff they are talking otherwise.
I'm not assuming anything. The hypothetical situation calls for Steve Fry to "walk up to the pearly gates and be confronted by God". I didn't create the scenario...I just read the link.
If Fry is at "the pearly gates" then, from everything I have ever known of what is taught about that, Pearly gates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, if you don't make it through, "hell" is a given.
Maybe I'm wrong...but that is how I've always understood it. Correct me if you know it to be different.
I don't believe for one second that Fry (or anyone else) would voluntarily choose to be tormented in pain beyond anything ever imagined by anyone for all of eternity just for the satisfaction of telling God off. If, given that situation, he really would do that...then he is every bit, actually infinitely beyond, how much of an idiot I could ever think he is.
GldnRule you are missing quite a lot. Context.
Given that I'm British and I understand the context I will fill you in.
Gay Byrne and Stephen Fry are both well respected household names in the UK.
Gay Byrne has been a TV presenter in Ireland for 37 years. He is now onto his 10th series of 'The Meaning of Life' in which he asks all his guests the same question 'What would you say to god?"
Stephen Fry is a comedian, and also an actor. But he is perhaps is best known these days for hosting a long running comedy quiz show called 'QI' in which guests are asked mostly obscure questions that they are unlikely to know the answer to, but can get points for 'quite interesting answers'. I believe they are up to around series 12. Probably the main reason the show is so popular is because of the host, who is probably one of the most well-read people in Britain and is practically a walking encyclopedia.
You can view every QI show on You tube. I suggest you watch one at random and see if you still think Fry is a complete idiot.
Byrne's show is also entertainment. I doubt he would want every single guest he interviewed to give predictable answers. Wouldn't be very entertaining would it?
In fact I read Bynes write up in the Independent. He said this about one of his interviewees, Ian Paisley, an Irish unionist and religious leader:
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Paisley was the only one on The Meaning of Life who thought, absolutely, that the words of scripture are literally true. He believed that it was started with two people actually called Adam and Eve. There was a garden, and a tree and an apple and a serpent. This is no metaphor, no simile, no simple parable. And the serpent did whisper in Eve's ear, and she did eat the apple and that screwed up everything for all of us. I don't know how Ian would cope with Stephen's reaction to that. I think there would be rude words used - by both. And boy, can you imagine the rumpus on Twitter?
This is Britain we are talking about here, not America. We have a long history of comedy and laughing at religion. It's called a having sense of humour. Fry answered in way that was in a similar vein to how he is on his own show ie the answer was 'Quite Interesting'.
Gldnrule I like you a lot. You are fun person to have on the forum but you predictably think of every single atheist the same. We are all complete idiots in your head. And I'm glad you used your usual 'moronic blowhole spew' to describe any given atheist. I wouldn't recognise you without it.
But it would make it sensible. Who cares about "just" or "good" when ending up in eternal torment beyond anything imagined hangs in the balance?
No, I'm sure he won't. And if asked again...he'd probably still spout out the same pretentiously brash and moronic blowhole spew.
NAH!...it's the furthest from sound.
Whenever I have called bunk on someones claim that they would be so brave and brash that they would accept eternal torment rather than worship an "evil dictator" God...instead of trying to defend THAT, they invariably deflect to, "Because it isn't real anyway", after they realize they have just been called on how stupid and indefensible what they just said is.
We all know what everyone (including Fry) would actually do in that situation...regardless of whatever dumbstuff they are talking otherwise.
'Sensible' sounds like a pragmatic approval of what bu all moral standards is awful. Your opinions of Stephen fry who is considered an outstanding intellect do you no credit, old chum.
And your reiteration of your point that, if threatened with eternal torment almost anyone would cave in, does not alter the fact that God's (of course for a westerner, the Abrahamic god and christian myths are the god and similes that will spring to mind) work in the world is not as good as it out to be, and appeals to fallible human judgement (morality is 'written on our hearts - by whom if not God?) and 'ot's our fault' free -will argument fail utterly and appeals to 'Big Boss' and fear of speaking out just make that mythological god look even more loathsome, and do you no credit in playing that gambit.
Of course, Fry was surely aware that what you would actually say in that situation was not the real question. It is 'what if you are wrong' dressed up in a way that makes the Abrahamic god the only one on the table. Though I doubt the presenter realized what a loaded question it was.
Fry's response was not intended to be a guaranteed response to God demanding..."Well? Why didn't you believe in me?" but was a presentation of a reason why such a god cannot really exist and the situation would not arise. Your banging away at the 'he wouldn't dare...' point shows a rather strictured thinking on your part.
Of course, If offered the chance of admitting that we (non -believers) were wrong and thus escaping hellfire, we probably would grab it with both hands and never mind the problem of Evil. However, if we were damned anyway, they what would we have to lose? tell the bastard to his face what an incompetent, vile, cynical, egostistical, mendacious, untrustworthy bully he really is.
That groveling would be tough to handle...but nothing compared to the eternal pain beyond anything that has ever been imagined that hell is claimed to be.
That would decide things real quick for anyone faced with it...I'd bet for that Fry dude too. He just doesn't have the character or guts to admit it. Easy to act all big, brave, and stoic...when it is just "hypothetical"...I'm sure I know what he would do if it was for real.
Its not the actual groveling part that's so tough. Its the knowing that I'd more than likely act out of cowardice; love for others and integrity be damned. When I left Christianity I realized that I had really had that mindset all along. Knowing that I would more than likely revert back to that mindset at the first whiff of sulfur is a discouraging and humiliating thing to accept about oneself.
...I don't believe for one second that Fry (or anyone else) would voluntarily choose to be tormented in pain beyond anything ever imagined by anyone for all of eternity just for the satisfaction of telling God off. If, given that situation, he really would do that...then he is every bit, actually infinitely beyond, how much of an idiot I could ever think he is.
I addressed these ideas in my previous post, but it is buried rather deeply now (page 5, post #49). I will just emphasize this: If God knows me and all of my thoughts and feelings, what is the point of lying to Him and pretending to love Him, etc.? Our feelings are what they are. We can't rationally choose to love someone if we don't love them, or respect them if we don't respect them. I can certainly choose to behave respectfully - and, if I felt like this would keep me from going to hell, I would probably choose to do so, but to actually say the words "I love you" to God, if I do not in fact love Him, is just to compound my sins. In addition to not loving God, I would also be telling Him a boldface lie! What could possibly be the wisdom in that? I really do believe that any God that could be even remotely worth respecting would be a God who would respect my honest statements, even if they expressed my displeasure with God.
Its not the actual groveling part that's so tough. Its the knowing that I'd more than likely act out of cowardice; love for others and integrity be damned. When I left Christianity I realized that I had really had that mindset all along. Knowing that I would more than likely revert back to that mindset at the first whiff of sulfur is a discouraging and humiliating thing to accept about oneself.
To accept you're human and thus not quite perfect shouldn't be humiliating, my friend.
I say we all meet, ask forgiveness a day before the end of the world, and then storm the bloody pearly gates. The end I hear is within our life time. SWEET!
A rule's a rule.
It has to work if they're letting Goldie in.
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Why didn't you believe in me?" but was a presentation of a reason why such a god cannot really exist and the situation would not arise. Your banging away at the 'he wouldn't dare...' point shows a rather strictured thinking on your part.
