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That's interesting 24/7. Most atheists (or non-theists if you prefer) that I know were never really THAT devout.
I know several athiests who were very devout fundies, jw's and others who lost their faith..
24/7 thanks for letting us in on who you really are..We do like to know "the rest of the story" in this forum. Seems that once we get to know each other a little personally that we best understand each other and have more enjoyable discussions..Soooo. I think you should stick around, because when we run out of new debates you certainly have the talent to make up new ones
Yet you saw fit to start a thread calling a specific poster on the carpet BY NAME?
Kinda rash don't you think?
Or did you just want to shut him up for fear your religion would loose converts?
Frankly I am just trying to figure out the REAL reason for your post.
I think it appeared to Deb that he was trolling. That's what I was beginning to think too. Actually, I think this thread has helped us get to know as blue said "the rest of the story." And that does help when we kinda know where someone may be coming from, ya know.
I was a Jehovah's Witness for nearly 40 years, an elder for some of those, before I lost my faith. In 30 straight years I never missed a month spending some time knocking on peoples doors telling them our version of the 'Good News of the Kingdom.' I sincerely believed I had the truth and our take on the Bible was the right one.
I am now agnostic, after a breakdown, which I believed was mostly caused by guilt and suppressing disturbing questions about God and the Bible for many years, being told by others to 'leave them in God's hands and not to worry about them.'
I have now read several books about faith and the ones that speak the most rationally to me are the atheistic ones.
Also, most of the most compassionate, most loving, least judgmental, least arrogant people I have met, have been agnostics and atheists.
For a good read, see if you can find a copy of Leslie Weatherhead's "The Christian Agnostic." He was a prominent Evangelist during the thirties and forties. I think he is still alive in England. He's well thought of in theological circles even today. The book may now be out of print, I don't know. It's worth looking up.
The gist of the book is how for so many, many years he preached based on the bible. Then, as he aged, he came to understand that how he really felt, had changed. It is a great testimonial about how someone can truly believe in God, but have grave misgivings about how His message is presented.
One very enlightening thing he does is to present logical explanation for happenings, such as "Turning water into Wine, Feeding the 3000, and the Virgin Birth."
The only thing that bothered me about the book was at the end, he said he was toying with the idea of Reincarnation. He didn't seem to have made up his mind one way or the other, but he presented his thought. While it was interesting, since he had questions about it, I think he should have left those thought for another book.
Keep up the questions. Some on this forum take it very personally when they are asked to really think about what they believe. It's as if they have been spoonfed for so long that they are incapable of choosing to look at all sides of a discussion. Reading and studying only those things that agree with a person's viewpoint doesn't allow questioning. I think questioning is a healthy way to grow, mentally, emotionally and (gasp) spiritually!
You're part right about the username. I do spend a lot of time on the net (I have no life), but on a serious note, I'm a closet talk show host/teacher. I enjoy discussions and debates and I prefer controversial material. Please, this is not to say, by ANY means, that I want people resorting to name calling and disrespect. Not my style or intention. My style is to put something out there and let people come to their own realizations once the matter has been discussed from both sides. I HATE telling people what to do or what they SHOULD believe. I prefer to provide the evidence and let people draw their conclusions.
Believe it or not, I was once a Christian and a VERY devout one at that. I was not your run of the mill one either who picked up a Bible on Sundays when the pastor asked me to open my Bible. I was an avid bible student, lexicons, concordances, bible dictionaries and tons of apologetic books all over the place. Walked and talked the Bible. I've forgotten more than most Christians will ever know about their Bibles and, please, I do not say that with arrogance, but to state the fact that I know what I am taking about even as an unbeliever because some equate unbelief with ignorance. Despite this, I was never one to bother people. Even while living in NYC, of all places, I was never the one to harass people with my beliefs.
Enter the age of the internet. I was one of Lycos.com's earliest members ages ago. While browsing around I saw a few atheists on there making mince meat of the Christians. I dove in and started debating with them (respectfully). A respect grew and we just held our corners, so to speak. From there, I realized that on the net I could generate conversation. I saw myself as a talk show host who each day would bring a subject to the audience and let them discuss it. Blame it on my 11th grade English teacher. I can still hear her telling our class that she wanted something, new, fresh, different when it came to our term paper. Not run of the ill subjects. So I got away from the usual boring subjects about religion (where did Cain get his wife? Should we go to church on Sunday or Saturday? DO you think Jesus was black, etc?).
As a Christian I used to just drop in on my favorite websites and start pro-Christian topics. Nobody would ask me to. I just enjoyed sharing or starting topics to get people talking. There I was starting subjects about "who were the 'sons' of God' of Genesis 6" and trying to prove that Jesus' story was unlike those of other pagan dying and rising savior gods. The Christians on the sites loved me. I would get the PMs (Private Messages) telling me to keep it up and others asking me to come to their defense, etc. I just enjoyed discussion.
Then the wheels fell off and I stopped believing the Christian version of things and I definitely had no interest in anyone else's version, so no other cults for me. Wasn't the hypocrites in the church, no pastor raped me as a kid, no desire to want to go buck wild "in the world." It just stopped making sense. Well, while the belief changed, the passion and style did not. I still love discussion, still love debate, still love to make people smile/laugh and still like to make people think TwentyFourSeven.
Now you know a little more about me.
Thanks for sharing that. Seriously.
My *opinion*...and please don't take this as me "judging" or being "self righteous" or the "famous x argument" ...it's just a thought. I think you had a lot of head knowledge that never made it to your heart.
Did you ever love the Lord? I mean love, not "like" or "this is interesting to me" or "scripture study is fun" etc. Have you ever had that overwhelming love and joy inside that you simply can't explain?
There are many theologians, pastors, priests, nuns etc who wouldn't know Jesus if he showed up at their door but they have Doctorates in their respective field.
I think atheists or agnostics arrive there from different paths. Some that were atheists go back to belief in god. The one thing they all have in common is thinking and education rather than just believing and leaving reason at the door. CS Lewis and Karen Armstrong are thinkers who traveled thru atheism then to belief again. It appears Mother Theresa believed more in helping people than in an actual god.
It is my observation that the belief in a god fills an emotional human need or it wouldn't be so widespread. Not everyone needs it, but a lot of people do. I can respect the believers as long as they recognize the inconsistencies, come to terms with them without denying they exist, and don't try to force their beliefs on others. Those who believe all who don't agree with them are somehow evil or condemned to he!! are not fundamentally different than the terrorists - it's just a matter of degree and fear based control.
Keep up the questions. Some on this forum take it very personally when they are asked to really think about what they believe. It's as if they have been spoonfed for so long that they are incapable of choosing to look at all sides of a discussion. Reading and studying only those things that agree with a person's viewpoint doesn't allow questioning. I think questioning is a healthy way to grow, mentally, emotionally and (gasp) spiritually!
I definitely would agree! I believe that if what you read, (or hear, watch, etc.) radically changes one's beliefs, then chances are, the doubts were already there to begin with. I know many people, (some in my family), who are afraid to read anything spiritually controversial, because it might cause them to question what they believe. I've been there myself, trying to force myself to fit into someone else's idea of what I should believe, so I understand where they are coming from. But, I just had, (and continue to have), too many questions, that couldn't be satisfactorily answered, especially by those who insisted that I only use one criteria, by which to judge. Whether I like the answers that I may come up with, or if I even get an answer, is not the most important thing. I think what's more important, (at least, for me), is that I am willing to seek out those answers, wherever it may lead me; that I am not afraid to look to other viewpoints and opinons, regardless of the controversy involved.
My *opinion*...and please don't take this as me "judging" or being "self righteous" or the "famous x argument" ...it's just a thought. I think you had a lot of head knowledge that never made it to your heart.
Did you ever love the Lord? I mean love, not "like" or "this is interesting to me" or "scripture study is fun" etc. Have you ever had that overwhelming love and joy inside that you simply can't explain?
There are many theologians, pastors, priests, nuns etc who wouldn't know Jesus if he showed up at their door but they have Doctorates in their respective field.
Just my thoughts.
Thanks again for sharing.
JViello, I'm going to answer you first and I hope you don't take this the wrong way either. What you see here is 24/7 after the fact, but when I first "came out" with my de-conversion (I am not one of those scared to tell), I got the usual reactions:
"He was never really a TRUE Christian."
"His backsliding proves he was never a TRUE Christian."
"He just wants to have fun in the world."
Then there were the questions like yours. Some people just have to rationalize the whole experience because in their worldview, you just can't lose your faith and to lose your faith means you ad no faith in the faith in the first place. The circular reasoning is based in a scripture in one of John's Epistles which says something to the effect of, "They (de-converts) went out from amongst us because they were never one of us in the first place." Thus, deconversion was evidence (to Christians then and now) that you never got it right. Of course the writer of John's Epistles lived during a time when many Christians were being influenced by the Gnostic culture.
As I pointed out before, I had arrived at my high point in my Christian experience. I was at the point where y days of supporting a VERY legalistic idea of Christianity was long past. I was happy to get away from that stuffy, uptight, hypocrisy breding, judgmental brand of Christianity. It started in New York City when I began attending the world famous Brooklyn Tabernacle Church and carried over to Ft. Lauderdale at the nationally famous Calvary Chapel Church under Bob Coy. I really, really enjoyed it. I was at every service, worshiping, praising ad being calmed by the whole experience. I was thoroughly convinces deep inside that I was grounded solidly in Jesus and enjoyed every minute of it. There was no casualness to my faith. Then a funny thing happened on the way to heaven.
You see, JViello, I ALWAYS had the questions. I grew up at my grandmother's feet on the island of St. Kitts reading the Bible from age 4. I moved to NYC at 8 where as an avid reader I became fascinated by Greek, Roman, Norse and Egyptian mythologies. I quickly noticed similarities between what I read in the Bible and these myths, but I ever made the connection (that came later). The I read some rather eyebrow raising stories in the Bible, but like someone pointed out, these were all suppressed and/or rationalized away with "God knows best," "God knows what he was doing," "God's ways are higher than our ways and his ways are past finding out, "Just have faith," "Don't question God," "Jesus will explain everything in heaven," etc.
Trust me when I tell you I ran the whole gamut; the whole experience. This is one reason people like me is seen as a serious threat. I am labeled as an apostate, enemy number 1 to the Christian and Christian faith. I know every argument a Christian will use because I've used them. I know how they will reply. I know what scriptures they will use. I know what they will appeal to and I know what they will resort to.
There much more I can tell and more will be told over time, but I understand people's initial fears. I EXPECTED it. I am not a jerk, have malicious intent or here to start petty name calling was with anyone. Not my style.
I think atheists or agnostics arrive there from different paths. Some that were atheists go back to belief in god. The one thing they all have in common is thinking and education rather than just believing and leaving reason at the door. CS Lewis and Karen Armstrong are thinkers who traveled thru atheism then to belief again. It appears Mother Theresa believed more in helping people than in an actual god.
It is my observation that the belief in a god fills an emotional human need or it wouldn't be so widespread. Not everyone needs it, but a lot of people do. I can respect the believers as long as they recognize the inconsistencies, come to terms with them without denying they exist, and don't try to force their beliefs on others. Those who believe all who don't agree with them are somehow evil or condemned to he!! are not fundamentally different than the terrorists - it's just a matter of degree and fear based control.
There are different types of atheists. Not all atheists are TRUE atheists. People who serve the biblical god for what they can get, never receive anything may walk away bitter, but the minute things improve, there is always the chance they might go back IF they do not run into intellectual material that causes them to make a clean break. Those (like me) who conclusively prove that something like the Bible, the alleged world of God and blueprint for all a Christian is supposed to believe, can't ever return to an idea that all of a sudden it becomes true and real again. It's hard, if not totally impossible to claim a belief in the biblical god and have no faith in the Bible. Any appearances that such people are Christians is nothing more than keeping up appearances for one reason or another and trust me, there are lots of them.
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I believe that if what you read, (or hear, watch, etc.) radically changes one's beliefs, then chances are, the doubts were already there to begin with. I know many people, (some in my family), who are afraid to read anything spiritually controversial, because it might cause them to question what they believe. I've been there myself, trying to force myself to fit into someone else's idea of what I should believe, so I understand where they are coming from. But, I just had, (and continue to have), too many questions, that couldn't be satisfactorily answered, especially by those who insisted that I only use one criteria, by which to judge. Whether I like the answers that I may come up with, or if I even get an answer, is not the most important thing. I think what's more important, (at least, for me), is that I am willing to seek out those answers, wherever it may lead me; that I am not afraid to look to other viewpoints and opinons, regardless of the controversy involved.
