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My personal take on the Bible is that much of it is Old Testament and is in there for it's chronicled historical value to the New Testament. I cannot recall one single declaration by Jesus about homosexuality in the Bible. His was the New Word, which was often the polar opposite and sometimes with contradictions. But because of the Old Testament's inclusion, religions and readers have tried too hard to live by The Book in its entirety (and, all too often, solely by the Old Word). I am also of the mind that "interpretation" has been a mishandled tool over the centuries, and much of it's language is metaphoric (important, but metaphoric).
We ARE expected to live by a set of rules - I've no doubt about that. But "the barbarism", and judgments, that people have their panties in a wad over, is NOT Jesus.
Are you folks aware of the extent of the torture and suffering involved in crucifixion? It's not a walk in the park.
Sure, which is why I called it "relatively" mild torture. Torture it most certainly way. But our species has honed its ability to visit suffering on one another at this point to a degree that that visited upon the Nazerene in the book was nothing too special.
Nope, disagreeing with a point is not missing the point. Quite the opposite in fact, so let us not pretend otherwise any longer. The point stands. Any person living this life who is given the opportunity to obtain eternal bliss and dominion, and takes it, is not making a "sacrifice". Unless of course they do not WANT eternal bliss and dominion, then of course accepting it is not a sacrifice.
The Jesus character did no such thing. The character had nothing to lose, everything to gain. That is the exact antithesis of "sacrifice" no matter how many colorful fonts you use to deny it.
You said he "tasted death" but the story also claims he has eternal life. So he tasted nothing. He was just pretending to. It reminds of a song called "Common People" by the band Pulp. In the song a very rich girl "sacrifices" all her money to go and live and study and sleep with the common people. To try and be one of them, understand them, live like them, become one of them
But as the song says:
"Smoke some **** and play some pool, pretend you never went to school.
But still you'll never get it right
'cos when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall
If you call your Dad he could stop it all. "
In other words the girl the story is about can never _really_ taste what it is to be one of the common people. Because no matter what she does, at the back of it all she has an "out". She knows it is not real. Daddy can make it all better when it gets hard. And to truely understand the plight of the poor you need to actually BE POOR.
The same goes for the Nazerene. The story in the fairy tale tells of a god who came down to pretend to be man. To try and taste death like us, be one of us, live like us, suffer with us. But like the girl in the song the character is nothing short of a fraud and pretender. Because EVERY step on the path the character knows it is not real, that eternal bliss awaits. There is no true death, or true experience of being defined by death, and hence the character can only fail as tragically as the girl in the song.
So no, I do not think it is "sacrifice". I think it a mockery of sacrifice and an insult to anyone who genuinely did make a sacrifice in our world. Of which many have.
No, because no sacrifice is or was made in the story. The god head in question gets this "son" right back. For eternity. Calling this a sacrifice is an insult to the parents in this world who genuinely have lost a child, and know what that feels like. People who can not use their magical woo woo powers to make it all better again any time they want. This "god" is as pathetic a failure in this regard again as the girl in the song who can, when it all gets too much, simply call daddy and make it all better.
Yet parents in this world who genuinely have watched their child die can not do that. When they hit the depths of unbearable grief and despair, they can not click their metaphorical fingers and make it all ok again. They can not lie to us, as your story does, by simultaneously claiming to have watched their child die, but that said child is right there beside them a-ok for all time.
You laughably consider an eternal life of bliss and dominion a sacrifice. For the insignificant cost of a short life of relatively mild discomfort ending in relatively mild torture. There are 100s of 1000s of people on this planet today who would gladly queue up for such a deal. Happily realizing the profit in it. Yet you jokingly tell us that this Jesus character should be considered to have made a sacrifice? And there are people on the thread wondering why we consider the Bible Barbaric.
Except it is ENTIRELY different for the reasons I just laid out. It is not even remotely the same thing. And as I keep saying, your pretense that it is the same thing is not just wrong, but is outright insulting and demeaning to parents who have watched their children die in battle or otherwise.
Nothing at all "low" about making my point and sticking to it. I have replied directly to you too. So it is simply a lie from you that I replied to something you did not say, unlike you who did not reply to what I said, but pretended it was "like" something else and replied to that instead.
Read post 539 then tell me how anyone's life is a sacrifice as ALL come out from the Father and ALL return to the Father.
All you are doing is making a mockery of anyone's sacrifice. But if that floats your boat.
Read post 539 then tell me how anyone's life is a sacrifice as ALL come out from the Father and ALL return to the Father.
All you are doing is making a mockery of anyone's sacrifice. But if that floats your boat.
No the mockery of it still comes from you because there is a massive difference here you simply wantonly ignore. But if that floats your boat.
Firstly you have offered no evidence of that claim above _at all_. You have just made it up. There is no argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer at all, least of all from you, to suggest there is an after life, a god, or any of this. You simply make it up. But if that floats your boat.
The relevant difference however is that in your story book of choice the main character had the privilege of not only an after life, full of bliss and dominion, but KNOWLEDGE of the fact that it exists and that is where he was ultimately going.
Therefore any choice to "sacrifice" his life was done in the light of this knowledge, promise and guarantee. So the character was unable to make the REAL choice of giving up his life, because he knew no such thing would occur, said character is still alive and well in the story and he knew he would be.
Now contrast this to a human being in our world today giving up their life with no such knowledge. Many even without faith of any after life at all. That is a TRUE sacrifice. They are giving up _everything_ they have with no knowledge, faith or expectation of getting it back 5 minutes later. That is a sacrifice.
Comparing this real sacrifice to the Jesus story non-sacrifice is like comparing a man with no job giving all his money to charity, with a man so rich that he knows any money he gives to charity can be declared for tax relief and he will get it right back. That is what makes a true mockery of the REAL concept of sacrifice, and that is how you insult those who have made true sacrifice, and how your bible book is barbaric. But if that floats your boat.
No the mockery of it still comes from you because there is a massive difference here you simply wantonly ignore. But if that floats your boat.
Firstly you have offered no evidence of that claim above _at all_. You have just made it up. There is no argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer at all, least of all from you, to suggest there is an after life, a god, or any of this. You simply make it up. But if that floats your boat.
The relevant difference however is that in your story book of choice the main character had the privilege of not only an after life, full of bliss and dominion, but KNOWLEDGE of the fact that it exists and that is where he was ultimately going.
Therefore any choice to "sacrifice" his life was done in the light of this knowledge, promise and guarantee. So the character was unable to make the REAL choice of giving up his life, because he knew no such thing would occur, said character is still alive and well in the story and he knew he would be.
Now contrast this to a human being in our world today giving up their life with no such knowledge. Many even without faith of any after life at all. That is a TRUE sacrifice. They are giving up _everything_ they have with no knowledge, faith or expectation of getting it back 5 minutes later. That is a sacrifice.
Comparing this real sacrifice to the Jesus story non-sacrifice is like comparing a man with no job giving all his money to charity, with a man so rich that he knows any money he gives to charity can be declared for tax relief and he will get it right back. That is what makes a true mockery of the REAL concept of sacrifice, and that is how you insult those who have made true sacrifice, and how your bible book is barbaric. But if that floats your boat.
+1 Some people are so blinded by their "blind faith", that they can't see the real world. If I KNEW for a fact, that I could go save a bunch of people by dying, then come back good as new, maybe even better, I would do it in a heartbeat. The difference between me and Jesus? I would give my life for others without the promise of an afterlife if it ever came down to it.
No the mockery of it still comes from you because there is a massive difference here you simply wantonly ignore. But if that floats your boat.
Quote:
Firstly you have offered no evidence of that claim above _at all_. You have just made it up. There is no argument, evidence, data or reasoning on offer at all, least of all from you, to suggest there is an after life, a god, or any of this. You simply make it up. But if that floats your boat.
First off you are talking to a Christian so of course I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Second because you do not there is always going to be a barrier when we speak.
Just because I believe in God does not make what I say in error, you believe what I believe to be in error but your belief does not mean you are correct.
Quote:
The relevant difference however is that in your story book of choice the main character had the privilege of not only an after life, full of bliss and dominion, but KNOWLEDGE of the fact that it exists and that is where he was ultimately going.
Therefore any choice to "sacrifice" his life was done in the light of this knowledge, promise and guarantee. So the character was unable to make the REAL choice of giving up his life, because he knew no such thing would occur, said character is still alive and well in the story and he knew he would be.
Now contrast this to a human being in our world today giving up their life with no such knowledge. Many even without faith of any after life at all. That is a TRUE sacrifice. They are giving up _everything_ they have with no knowledge, faith or expectation of getting it back 5 minutes later. That is a sacrifice.
Comparing this real sacrifice to the Jesus story non-sacrifice is like comparing a man with no job giving all his money to charity, with a man so rich that he knows any money he gives to charity can be declared for tax relief and he will get it right back. That is what makes a true mockery of the REAL concept of sacrifice, and that is how you insult those who have made true sacrifice, and how your bible book is barbaric. But if that floats your boat.
Do you even know the meaning of the word sacrifice? Here let me help you out.
Sacrifice: An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.
Ever here of a sacrifice fly in baseball? it is that which puts the batter out, but allows the base runner to come home.
Just as I said Jesus is to do, came into this world to bring us/everyone home.
One of your problems is you think Jesus did it for himself, which is totally off base.
And your other problem is you are making up your own definition of sacrifice.
So try try again.
And this was not about proof in God, it was about sacrifice and as you can see I follow the definition of the word sacrifice and you do not, but have to make up your own definition.
+1 Some people are so blinded by their "blind faith", that they can't see the real world. If I KNEW for a fact, that I could go save a bunch of people by dying, then come back good as new, maybe even better, I would do it in a heartbeat. The difference between me and Jesus? I would give my life for others without the promise of an afterlife if it ever came down to it.
However that is not the definition of sacrifice. And would you not be sacrificing yourself to save another? that is what Jesus did.
First off you are talking to a Christian so of course I believe in God and Jesus Christ.
Funny is it not that when a scientist believes in something he will give the arguments, the evidence, the data and the reasons for his belief and he will say THIS is of course why I believe.
A theist will give their denomination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Second because you do not there is always going to be a barrier when we speak.
Yes I expect people, myself included, to substantiate what they say. If you do not, then that will be a barrier. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Just because I believe in God does not make what I say in error
I never claimed it does. So we are back to that thing I mentioned in the previous post where you appear to need to correct me on things I only said in your fantasy world. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
you believe what I believe to be in error but your belief does not mean you are correct
Except, unlike you, I have actually laid out the arguments and reasoning behind calling your position incorrect. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Do you even know the meaning of the word sacrifice? Here let me help you out.
Sacrifice: An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.
Do you even know the meaning of the words you just used when defining sacrifice? Here let me help you out. The character in the book IS STILL ALIVE. So the character did not GIVE UP LIFE. So anyone calling his "death" a sacrifice might OWN a dictionary and might be CAPABLE of looking up the words "sacrifice" and "death" but they are clearly not understanding what the definitions are telling them.
So I am afraid posting dictionary definitions is not helping your case, but mine. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
One of your problems is you think Jesus did it for himself, which is totally off base.
I have not said this, expressed this thought, implied it implicitly or explicitly or anything of the sort. Once again you have decided to tell me what I think, even though it is not something I have ever thought or espoused. Perhaps I should keep a tally at this point of how many times I have been compelled to pick YOUR words out of MY mouth. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
And your other problem is you are making up your own definition of sacrifice.
Except I have done no such thing, anywhere, ever. So try try again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
However that is not the definition of sacrifice. And would you not be sacrificing yourself to save another? that is what Jesus did.
Except he did no such thing in your story book of choice _because he is still alive_. So try try again.
+1 Some people are so blinded by their "blind faith", that they can't see the real world. If I KNEW for a fact, that I could go save a bunch of people by dying, then come back good as new, maybe even better, I would do it in a heartbeat. The difference between me and Jesus? I would give my life for others without the promise of an afterlife if it ever came down to it.
This may be the "missing" concept so many others have yet to recognize. No, it doesn't have to be acted on to be proven, ones KNOWS if this is true for them and when people are able to think / believe / or hold to this idea, LIFE IMPROVES and LOVE is understood.
However that is not the definition of sacrifice. And would you not be sacrificing yourself to save another? that is what Jesus did.
But according to YOUR definition Sacrifice is giving something up in return for something GREATER.
Sacrifice: An act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy.
Doing something such as giving up something of value with NO REGARDS to REWARD, is MORE than SACRIFICE, it is even greater than LOVE....
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Some people are so blinded by their "blind faith", that they can't see the real world. If I KNEW for a fact, that I could go save a bunch of people by dying, then come back good as new, maybe even better, I would do it in a heartbeat. The difference between me and Jesus? I would give my life for others without the promise of an afterlife if it ever came down to it.
