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Originally Posted by Amelorn
I will try and deliver my thoughts as neutrally as possible.
I was born into a fairly devout "Irish" Catholic family in Long Island, New York (both sides). To qualify their devotion: I was baptised, took communion, and was confirmed, all on schedule. From age 5 or 6 until I was enrolled in Catholic school at age 12, I attended CCD classes, most led by my mother. Though my parents separated, they didn't formally divorce and neither pursued a relationship at all. My father hasn't even after my mother's passing. From 14-18, I attended an all-male Catholic school - one which educated my maternal uncles before me. One aunt is a principal at a local Catholic school. The other aunt is a devotional throwback that could have rivalled the piety of my Irish immigrant great-grandparents. And so on and so forth.
Long Island itself is heavily Catholic and will likely remain so. Upwardly mobile Irish and Italian immigrants moved out of NYC into the suburbs. They are being followed in the 21st century by Latin American immigrants.
That was too long of an intro.
My issues:
-Resenting my Catholic schooling didn't help. I was already a tightly-wound, should-have-had-psychological/therapeutic-help grade self-criticising, bullied shell of a boy. I didn't need a strict-conservative faculty + the testosterone/bravado of 1,600 middle/upper-middle class future frat boys to break that. I soon sported neurotic paranoia about having my shirt tucked in, triple checking that I copied homework down, and had my shirt collar buttoned down.
-Rather than deal with my issues, I immersed myself in history (a coping mechanism established in primary school). At that point in my life, I revelled in late Roman and Byzantine history. It was impossible to ignore that the RCC was the state Church of the Roman Empire - one of those fascinating cases where the institution outlived its host state. I saw less of the "Hand of God" and more "Hand of the Emperor". When you combine (certain) Protestant criticism/observation with the Mary worsh...I mean "veneration" + the saints + the neoclassical statuary, mosaics, vestments, and other adornments it makes sense. There's a mix of otherwise-lost Oriental mysticism mixed with Occidental power and grandeur.
-The above continued in my medieval history reading.
-My tenure as a HS student coincided with the height of the sexual abuse scandal. The juxtaposition of the Roman imperial will as well as what seems to have been a gang mentality of protecting abusers to protect the institution was not helpful.
-I just never connected with (any) god, and as such do not believe in the existence of any. As a child (seemingly) surrounded by the faithful (I didn't realise that atheists were a thing until late childhood), I thought I was broken for not hearing a literal voice of God.
-When a bolder student in HS asked a difficult question, "It's a mystery of faith" was not a suitable answer. I was even less impressed by the deference granted to and the monies expended for the almost lazily regarded "mysteries." You might detect some antipathy towards the laity/priestly hierarchy.
-Lack of historical evidence for a Jesus. The manipulation of Jesus to conform with whatever he is "needed" for, from arch-conservative to flaming hippie. My research on what fringe-millenarian Jewish preachers were like at the time suggest someone who'd make Benedict XVI/Ratzinger seem liberal.
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My dear friend in Christ; we ought to swap stories some time.
I'm going to address only one of your statements?
Quote:
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-I just never connected with (any) god, and as such do not believe in the existence of any.
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What you are in effect telling me is that your attended a lot of Catholic Schools; but foe a variety of reason either were not taught; or did not understand and believed what you were taught on The Catholic Faith.
Its a story I have heard multiple times before.
So you choose not to believe "in any god"; how convenient. Such a contrived position than "allows" you to live your life any way that YOU choose too; and to believe ANYTHING you want; and to act-out seemingly without [at least immediate] consequences.
My friend, if you choose to dress yourself; that is to say to actually pick out what your wearing and THEN dress yourself; I believe that I can prove to you the existence of what you might choose to call "god"; but whom we choose to call "Our God."
Genesis 1:26-27 tells us the God Choose to make man in his own image:
[26] "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them."
John 4: 23-24 then adds to our knowledge "what God is"
[23]"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the
true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24]
God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth."
So then we ask how can these two statements be reconciled? Or can they ?
In all of the Universe [which alone BTW proves the existence of a "god"], with BILLIONS of stars, planet and galaxies; there is only One planet that can be proven [not suspected of]; BUT proven to be able to support all of the life forms that exist on it. That one planet is "Planet Earth." What are the odds of that being coincidental?
Then on Plant earth with its MILLIONS of "living things"; their is only one thing that can rationalize; can freely choose to love or to hate; can construct far more complex things out of less complex things. Yep; its humanity, and humanity alone, What do you suppose the odds are of that just being luck or coincidence?
Here's where we tie the two realities together:
In order for man to be enabled to do the kind of things mentions above in an absolute sense require the following:
A MIND [not speaking here of one's brain]
A INTELLECT [not referencing here one's "I. Q."]
And a FREEWILL
Now permit me another question: "Can you [or anyone for that matter] quantify any of these three absolutely essential "things" for us? NO! you cannot.
What for example is the size, weight, color and shape of your freewill? It can;t be done. WHY
Because in emulation of what we Catholics and Christian choose to term "Our God" these things too ARE spiritual realities. And that fulfills how man; and man alone can and DOES emulate our God.
So now that we have shown the logic behind Christianities belief in God; what other evidence exist that cannot be denied [without lying to oneself]?
Both the so called "natural laws" such as motion; & gravity as well as the Moral Laws such as "Thou Shalt Not kill" [the 5th Commandment BTW]; and thou Shalt not commit adultery [The 9th Commandment] are written on humanities minds and hearts and everyone CAN KNOW they are WRONG:
Why for example do the Sun and the Moon exist? And could very many earths living things exist without them? NO!
Jeremiah 31:33
"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people"
Hebrews 10:16
"And this is the testament which I will make unto them after those days, saith the Lord. I will give my laws in their hearts, and on their minds will I write them"
So friend you decision not to accept the reality of god or God is irrational and illogical. You, like each of us is free to choose: BUT not without consequence. Every action has and causes a reaction [another natural law[
Ecclesiasticus 15:18 "Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him"
God; heaven; hell and Purgatory are all real; and it is our what I term: our "Other self" our Spiritual realities of Mind, Intellect, freewill which ARE permanent attachments to our Souls; which like our God are eternal and immortal. Cannot die or be killed; and it is this part of man that will face God's Judgment. Amen!
You would do well to rethink the foolishness of your position.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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