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AS has been pointed out before, your quarrel is with the men who taught you what they THOUGHT God was supposed to do FOR us if we did what they said God wanted FROM us. It is a typical human interpretation and expectation that has no basis whatsoever in anything logical or rational. If our cells were sentient they might similarly think such nonsense to no avail. It would not change their reality one whit as they endure their individual cellular lifetimes while maintaining OUR existence. The pain signals (prayers?) from disease and trauma that they endure invoke some response from us sometimes, but not always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored
I don't think you understood that Mystic. Mordant can correct me if I am wrong, but it seemed to me that he was simply saying that if your God does not have any impact on anything, then he isn't going to spend his time worrying about it. He will simply worry about the things that DO have an impact on him.
You always fall back on this whole "you are talking about BELIEF!!!" nonsense, when people are not addressing that. They are addressing YOUR belief about the EXISTENCE and RELEVANCE of the God you claim.
If your God has no effect on anything, then who cares if it is real or not? It is indistinguishable from our known universe.
Of course I parse out the belief portion of my views from the existence one because they are based on my personal experiences and studies which are not sharable except in my Synthesis. Do I believe God impacts and effects our lives in the here and now? Yes, absolutely. But if you are looking for carnal or worldly impacts you are looking at the wrong aspects of your life. The Spiritual (read cognitive) aspects are the ones God is concerned about. What you are becoming Spiritually, the character of your thoughts and feelings, are the focus of God's interventions. IF it results in your rejection of absurd, ridiculous and preposterous claims of the various religions, that is evidence of His influence, IMO. If your "fruits" display a concern for others and a love of all life, that is evidence of His influence. Of course, my experiences and understanding of the nature of God as agape love colors my view of what is and is not influenced by God.
AS has been pointed out before, your quarrel is with the men who taught you what they THOUGHT God was supposed to do FOR us if we did what they said God wanted FROM us. It is a typical human interpretation and expectation that has no basis whatsoever in anything logical or rational. If our cells were sentient they might similarly think such nonsense to no avail. It would not change their reality one whit as they endure their individual cellular lifetimes while maintaining OUR existence. The pain signals (prayers?) from disease and trauma that they endure invoke some response from us sometimes, but not always.
I had, at one time, a quarrel with the beliefs I was taught, but that is beside the point here. I am simply requiring relevance for a thing to get very much attention or concern from me. If you can demonstrate relevance, fine. If not, well, at the moment I have to catch up on my weekly client billing.
Of course I parse out the belief portion of my views from the existence one because they are based on my personal experiences and studies which are not sharable except in my Synthesis. Do I believe God impacts and effects our lives in the here and now? Yes, absolutely. But if you are looking for carnal or worldly impacts you are looking at the wrong aspects of your life. The Spiritual (read cognitive) aspects are the ones God is concerned about. What you are becoming Spiritually, the character of your thoughts and feelings, are the focus of God's interventions. IF it results in your rejection of absurd, ridiculous and preposterous claims of the various religions, that is evidence of His influence, IMO. If your "fruits" display a concern for others and a love of all life, that is evidence of His influence. Of course, my experiences and understanding of the nature of God as agape love colors my view of what is and is not influenced by God.
Fair enough.
The bolded bit is what most people have issue with though. You use YOUR experiences and understanding to say that 100% you are right. That can not be said when there is no proof other than a subjective experience. There are millions of other people who use THEIR experiences and understanding to say they are 100% right. You can't all be right.
I have asked before, but I will ask again. If I were to do exactly as you did, and I came to a different conclusion than you, or I saw something different, who is right? Are we both right? Are we both wrong? Is your experience right and I didn't do it right? Is my experience right and you didn't do it right? There is no way to know, which is why people give you a hard time for stating that you know 100% you are right.
For example, I have 2 good friends of mine, who have recently converted to Paganism of some kind. (I haven't asked what they call it, and unfortunately I live a long way away from them, and they are now quite difficult to get in touch with). They went on this month long trip to the Rockies, and when they came back they told all of us about an experience that they shared. They told us about how they have talked to the mother Goddess (I believe is what they called it, could be wrong though), and they now realized that the "earth religions" were true and real. That when we die we will live in bliss here on earth, just not in our "living bodies".
Is there experience any less valid than yours? If so, why?
That being said, I am an agnostic/atheist, and I do not discount a supreme being, higher consciousness, or anything like that, I just do not see enough evidence for it. Also, please understand, this post is not meant to poke fun or belittle, or anything of the kind. I am asking these questions earnestly.
Do I believe God impacts and effects our lives in the here and now? Yes, absolutely. But if you are looking for carnal or worldly impacts you are looking at the wrong aspects of your life. The Spiritual (read cognitive) aspects are the ones God is concerned about. What you are becoming Spiritually, the character of your thoughts and feelings, are the focus of God's interventions. IF it results in your rejection of absurd, ridiculous and preposterous claims of the various religions, that is evidence of His influence, IMO. If your "fruits" display a concern for others and a love of all life, that is evidence of His influence. Of course, my experiences and understanding of the nature of God as agape love colors my view of what is and is not influenced by God.
In that case you would likely approve of what I am becoming in terms of character and awareness and my rejection of absurd religious claims and a demonstrable concern I have for others. I would say that is the influence of work I've done on myself, and the influence on me of people and ideas I have respect for. That is far more likely than that some ineffable Presence is presiding over it ... though of course I can neither prove nor disprove such a thing. Here again: not actionable, not relevant.
I will keep working on myself and you can attribute it to whatever your conception of god is if you wish, but I don't see that as having actual explanatory or predictive power. Fortunately your concept of god is broad-shouldered so to speak, all love and benevolence and so if I mistake this being's largesse for my own efforts and the fact that, in those efforts, I stand on the shoulders of giants -- my guess is that he will be quite unperturbed about it -- were he to even notice. If such a being is about growth in love then I doubt it cares whether it gets the credit.
Sure, lots of somethings are there. None of them are gods, of course, but no one's going to deny that something is there.
But if I redefine flapping my arms and flight to be having feet and standing on the ground, then I can fly. Not convinced? Now you understand the problem of the word games being played here with redefining the material universe to be god.
I don't disagree.
Yup, something is there. That is the most reasonable claim. claiming otherwise is less reasonable. "god' and the universe may be the same thing. I think of it as just as the parts that make me are me. The point is it's something, not nothing.
That's the starting point. There is no Omni dude and how we express our emotional connection to it is on the individual or group of individuals. There in no way is magic and "saving" others outside of education and self help is meaningless. And it aint random either.
Even that doesn't matter to me. claiming "random" and "Nothing" is more wrong than right. Claiming "omni dude" is just as wrong. Claiming "no omni dude" is fine because observation support that claim.
Some people have 'woo" feelings at football games. That 'woo" is real. other have 'woo" feeling looking at the night sky. That is reall too. There is "something", we have to check out this "woo" of theirs.
Of course I parse out the belief portion of my views from the existence one because they are based on my personal experiences and studies which are not sharable except in my Synthesis. Do I believe God impacts and effects our lives in the here and now? Yes, absolutely. But if you are looking for carnal or worldly impacts you are looking at the wrong aspects of your life. The Spiritual (read cognitive) aspects are the ones God is concerned about. What you are becoming Spiritually, the character of your thoughts and feelings, are the focus of God's interventions. IF it results in your rejection of absurd, ridiculous and preposterous claims of the various religions, that is evidence of His influence, IMO. If your "fruits" display a concern for others and a love of all life, that is evidence of His influence. Of course, my experiences and understanding of the nature of God as agape love colors my view of what is and is not influenced by God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
In that case you would likely approve of what I am becoming in terms of character and awareness and my rejection of absurd religious claims and a demonstrable concern I have for others. I would say that is the influence of work I've done on myself, and the influence on me of people and ideas I have respect for. That is far more likely than that some ineffable Presence is presiding over it ... though of course I can neither prove nor disprove such a thing. Here again: not actionable, not relevant.
I will keep working on myself and you can attribute it to whatever your conception of god is if you wish, but I don't see that as having actual explanatory or predictive power. Fortunately your concept of god is broad-shouldered so to speak, all love and benevolence and so if I mistake this being's largesse for my own efforts and the fact that, in those efforts, I stand on the shoulders of giants -- my guess is that he will be quite unperturbed about it -- were he to even notice. If such a being is about growth in love then I doubt it cares whether it gets the credit.
Ha, ha, ha. He gets the credit every time you express agape love, mordant. It is as simple and as wonderful as that, my friend. Peace.
Ha, ha, ha. He gets the credit every time you express agape love, mordant. It is as simple and as wonderful as that, my friend. Peace.
Sez you. No deity gets credit unless (1) the entity exists and (2) credit is given. And that is exactly why standard concepts of god consider it blasphemous to question the deity's existence or to take any sort of credit for oneself. In your case ... you would I suspect stop sort of unctuousness and charges of impertinence but you are still simply asserting a deity on your own say-so and various semantic arguments and then declaring my efforts at self improvement belong to someone other than myself. And that IS impertinent.
How does an atheist explain the involuntary nervous system? And what regulates it?
How does a Christian?
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