Christianity and free will (salvation, atheist, bible, quote)
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Reading the arguments of Christians concerning why God permits suffering and evil, I have noticed that the usual 'get out of jail' card is that God wants us to act as agents of free will and not merely be puppets whose actions can be completely manipulated by him. But if more people would realise that free will (as commonly defined by the Christian) does not make any sense, where would that leave Christianity in regions of the world where people are educated enough to understand basic science and philosophy?
As an atheist, I think that the absolute knock down argument against Christianity (excepting Calvinism) is the fact that salvation depends upon being able to exercise free will, whereas science tells us that free will cannot exist. It also means that suffering and evil is caused by a flaw that is inherent to God's initial design; as opposed to being caused by the 'fallen' nature of mankind. The unavoidable conclusion of this is that, although God could still exist, he cannot be the omnibenevolent God of the New Testament. He would have to be either an indifferent God (such as the type in which deists believe) or a malevolent one.
People who believe in free will seem to have the idea that the matter contained inside the human cranium has some kind of magical property, which allows it to be the only variety of matter in the universe that is unbound to any known laws of physics. Therefore the only kind of macroscopic event that can occur without any prior causes is in the case of a human being exercising their 'free will' to make a decision. I've discussed free will with many people, both theist and atheist, and none of its proponents can give any kind of coherent account of how free will operates within a materialistic universe. Usually they point to some kind of quantum indeterminism, without realising that 'random will' is not the same as 'free will'.
I would like to see atheists focus more on the issue of free will and discussing it with their friends and family who are Christians (without necessarily even referencing God himself), because that is the one tenet of Christianity that, if weakened, could bring down the entire house of cards. If free will does not exist in any meaningful sense, then it is purely a lottery whether one comes to accept Christ as one's saviour. If free will does not exist, then nobody can ultimately be blamed for their actions, and what it means to be a 'good Christian' is merely that you happened to have the luck to benefit from good genetics and good environmental influences when you were growing up.
There is another model of free will which is advanced by those who call themselves 'compatibilists'. This basically means that free will exists, but you have to redefine the term so that it refers to something that isn't physically impossible. So you have free will because your decisions are complex and cannot in practice be predicted, due to the fact that too many variables would have to be taken into account. You have free will because you would be capable of acting differently under slightly different circumstances, although not the exact same ones. In my opinion, this version of 'free will' is redundant, except as an act of semantical legerdemain - artfully changing the definition and hoping that the 'little people' won't notice what you have done and will continue to believe that they are the sole authors of their own destiny.
I'm interested in the thoughts of both theists and atheists on this subject, which is why I'm posting in the main religion forum.
There are two differnt approaches to the strictures of Hard Determinism that I am aware of. Let's start with the physical one from the standpoint of quantum physics in which we learn that physical reactions are based on statistics, so to speak, rather than entirely Newtonian cause and effect: almost all of the atoms in any given situation will jump one way, but an indertminate amount wil do the unexpected. Now I grant that I am no physicist, but what happens in any situation iif enough jump differently to skew your deterministic result?
The second approach denies the absolute physical nature of the universe: if there is a foerce that is capable of racking the result of the determinators in any particular situation back to a zero sum and allowing an actual choice in that situation the argument fails.
As an atheist, I think that the absolute knock down argument against Christianity (excepting Calvinism) is the fact that salvation depends upon being able to exercise free will, whereas science tells us that free will cannot exist.
People who believe in free will seem to have the idea that the matter contained inside the human cranium has some kind of magical property, which allows it to be the only variety of matter in the universe that is unbound to any known laws of physics. Therefore the only kind of macroscopic event that can occur without any prior causes is in the case of a human being exercising their 'free will' to make a decision. I've discussed free will with many people, both theist and atheist, and none of its proponents can give any kind of coherent account of how free will operates within a materialistic universe. Usually they point to some kind of quantum indeterminism, without realising that 'random will' is not the same as 'free will'.
I would like to see atheists focus more on the issue of free will and discussing it with their friends and family who are Christians (without necessarily even referencing God himself), because that is the one tenet of Christianity that, if weakened, could bring down the entire house of cards. If free will does not exist in any meaningful sense, then it is purely a lottery whether one comes to accept Christ as one's saviour. If free will does not exist, then nobody can ultimately be blamed for their actions, and what it means to be a 'good Christian' is merely that you happened to have the luck to benefit from good genetics and good environmental influences when you were growing up.
There is another model of free will which is advanced by those who call themselves 'compatibilists'. This basically means that free will exists, but you have to redefine the term so that it refers to something that isn't physically impossible. So you have free will because your decisions are complex and cannot in practice be predicted, due to the fact that too many variables would have to be taken into account. You have free will because you would be capable of acting differently under slightly different circumstances, although not the exact same ones. In my opinion, this version of 'free will' is redundant, except as an act of semantical legerdemain - artfully changing the definition and hoping that the 'little people' won't notice what you have done and will continue to believe that they are the sole authors of their own destiny.
I'm interested in the thoughts of both theists and atheists on this subject, which is why I'm posting in the main religion forum.
I discussed this several times with a Christian friend.
My initial thoughts were that an all knowing God and free will could not happily co-exist.
The first argument my friend brought up was "foreknowledge does not imply causality." I'm not sure why this is supposed to negate the argument that perfect foreknowledge negates free will.
My response would be that as long as God knows what's going to happen before it happens, it doesn't matter what is causing you to do it, you still have a predetermined outcome.
His response then would be God doesn't know "before" because God is timeless. He doesn't see things linearly like we do.
Okay, so what about when Jesus came to Earth. If Jesus had foreknowledge, then he did exist in a linear timeframe and the foreknowledge was still present. If Jesus did not have foreknowledge, Jesus talked to God the Father who responded as though having a linear conversation.
The interesting thing I realized, is although the Bible references "choices" several times, I believe this might be more because it's easier to comprehend than because you have freewill. The Bible states in several places that "He knows your footsteps" and "He has already chosen his children." I don't know if the Bible necessarily supports free will.
I discussed this several times with a Christian friend.
My initial thoughts were that an all knowing God and free will could not happily co-exist.
Agreed. You have a being that knows what your going to do even before your born then freewill becomes an illusion. It's not real as a human it might sound like the choice was yours all along but in the end it's not.
The concept of Free Will is one of the Ultimate Trump Cards and Escape Hatches used by Christian apologists for things like the Problem of Evil. It's a way of letting the Christian God off the hook for anything bad in the world. It's also a way for justifying things like eternal punishment, genocide by God in the Old Testament, etc.
Like the Eternal Soul, Free Will is an essential part of orthodox Christian theology. With the exception of strict Calvinism of course.
I discussed this several times with a Christian friend.
My initial thoughts were that an all knowing God and free will could not happily co-exist.
The first argument my friend brought up was "foreknowledge does not imply causality." I'm not sure why this is supposed to negate the argument that perfect foreknowledge negates free will.
It doesn't. All it does is make it "man's plan" instead of "God's plan". smh.
Reading the arguments of Christians concerning why God permits suffering and evil, I have noticed that the usual 'get out of jail' card is that God wants us to act as agents of free will and not merely be puppets whose actions can be completely manipulated by him. But if more people would realise that free will (as commonly defined by the Christian) does not make any sense, where would that leave Christianity in regions of the world where people are educated enough to understand basic science and philosophy?
As an atheist, I think that the absolute knock down argument against Christianity (excepting Calvinism) is the fact that salvation depends upon being able to exercise free will, whereas science tells us that free will cannot exist. It also means that suffering and evil is caused by a flaw that is inherent to God's initial design; as opposed to being caused by the 'fallen' nature of mankind. The unavoidable conclusion of this is that, although God could still exist, he cannot be the omnibenevolent God of the New Testament. He would have to be either an indifferent God (such as the type in which deists believe) or a malevolent one.
People who believe in free will seem to have the idea that the matter contained inside the human cranium has some kind of magical property, which allows it to be the only variety of matter in the universe that is unbound to any known laws of physics. Therefore the only kind of macroscopic event that can occur without any prior causes is in the case of a human being exercising their 'free will' to make a decision. I've discussed free will with many people, both theist and atheist, and none of its proponents can give any kind of coherent account of how free will operates within a materialistic universe. Usually they point to some kind of quantum indeterminism, without realising that 'random will' is not the same as 'free will'.
I would like to see atheists focus more on the issue of free will and discussing it with their friends and family who are Christians (without necessarily even referencing God himself), because that is the one tenet of Christianity that, if weakened, could bring down the entire house of cards. If free will does not exist in any meaningful sense, then it is purely a lottery whether one comes to accept Christ as one's saviour. If free will does not exist, then nobody can ultimately be blamed for their actions, and what it means to be a 'good Christian' is merely that you happened to have the luck to benefit from good genetics and good environmental influences when you were growing up.
There is another model of free will which is advanced by those who call themselves 'compatibilists'. This basically means that free will exists, but you have to redefine the term so that it refers to something that isn't physically impossible. So you have free will because your decisions are complex and cannot in practice be predicted, due to the fact that too many variables would have to be taken into account. You have free will because you would be capable of acting differently under slightly different circumstances, although not the exact same ones. In my opinion, this version of 'free will' is redundant, except as an act of semantical legerdemain - artfully changing the definition and hoping that the 'little people' won't notice what you have done and will continue to believe that they are the sole authors of their own destiny.
I'm interested in the thoughts of both theists and atheists on this subject, which is why I'm posting in the main religion forum.
Many, 99% of the evangelicals here will tell you humanity is PREDESTINED that they were either BORN as christians of God "chose" them to be saved.
In a counter point of view--If gittb KNOWS EVERYTHING, doesn't that make FREE WILL just an illusion?
The concept of Free Will is one of the Ultimate Trump Cards and Escape Hatches used by Christian apologists for things like the Problem of Evil. It's a way of letting the Christian God off the hook for anything bad in the world. It's also a way for justifying things like eternal punishment, genocide by God in the Old Testament, etc.
Like the Eternal Soul, Free Will is an essential part of orthodox Christian theology. With the exception of strict Calvinism of course.
But, isn't EVIL predestined? Was satan's choices a "surprise" to gittb????
I would like to see atheists focus more on the issue of free will and discussing it with their friends and family who are Christians (without necessarily even referencing God himself), because that is the one tenet of Christianity that, if weakened, could bring down the entire house of cards. If free will does not exist in any meaningful sense, then it is purely a lottery whether one comes to accept Christ as one's saviour. If free will does not exist, then nobody can ultimately be blamed for their actions, and what it means to be a 'good Christian' is merely that you happened to have the luck to benefit from good genetics and good environmental influences when you were growing up.
Conservative Christians won't even accept settled science like evolution. What makes you think they're going to accept hard determinism? Evolution already brings down the whole conservative Christian house of cards, and conservative Christians know it. That's why they deny evolution and even tried to have creationism taught in public schools (here in the US).
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