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You're right. I can never have a reasonable discussion with a bigot. Even people I don't agree with or am at odds with morally, I can have a conversation with. Doesn't matter if they're Hindu or Muslim or a Satanist. We can talk. But Christians seem way beyond that because they are so egotistical that they can never see the other side of an issue and how it affects other people.
When you choose to not play a video game, that's pretty in private and has no effect on others. When you refuse to do business with somebody else, that's different.
Whether you choose to eat meat or not is irrelevant to the conversation. But when you affect the ability of others to eat meat, that's different.
This is about one person affecting another person.
Ah, here comes the name-calling. If that's from me starting the mud-slinging, that was not my intent. I'll step back from that. But if you knew me, "bigot" would not apply. So please don't jump to conclusions, and I'll try not to do the same.
Here was your line, "It is exactly casting judgement. It is exactly trying to say what others should do." My examples were of a person excising their beliefs without casting judgement. But now I understand what you were trying to say.
So what if a customer came in and wanted a cake with a message slamming gays, or making fun of fat people, or anti-suburbanites? What about a swastika cake? Does a baker have a right to refuse to create a cake with those messages? Or does he need to write any message the customer wants? What if a customer wants a custom Halloween cake, but the baker doesn't like Halloween and states he doesn't do custom Halloween cakes. Does he not have a right to limit what types of custom messages he puts on the cakes?
Now, he's not refusing to sell to those customers at all. They can buy any in-stock cake. He will even sell them a custom-request cake if it's something like a simple birthday cake.
But is he really casting judgement? Just because he doesn't like Halloween, do you think he really cares if other people like Halloween? Is it a big deal to him or the customer if they go to the supermarket to buy a Halloween cake?
The Bible supports a father selling his daughter, Exodus 21:7. It also has handy tips on beating your slave (21: 20-21), and still having sex with your new wife even if you have a slave girl. (wink wink)
Its full of immorality, jaw-droppingly awful immorality.
Is that what you were getting at? The Bible is no guide for moraluit. its hugely flawed. . The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is.
Hey I'm just trying to find ANYTHING that an atheist would find immoral. It's kinda hard. They just won't admit that a father marrying a daughter is immoral and therefore the whole "love" argument fails miserably.
As for using the Bible against me, it won't work. The passages you cite were only temporary cultural class type Mosaic written only for the Israelites and made null and void by the death and resurrection of Christ.
The study states ongoing persecution as the reason. It takes more than 12 years for society to change. You are aware that being a homosexual and the act not being illegal is more recent that the civil rights acts and there is still too much prejudice against blacks.
Really, then I guess all those polls claiming that the majority of Americans love gay marriage are bogus then.
Society didn't change overnight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
That you see the victims of bullying as the problem and not the people doing the bullying is telling.
The problem wouldn't exist if people were not practicing sexual immorality. It's a real problem that sex offenders have difficulty finding jobs. But using your reason, it's the people who are not comfortable being around them who are the ones to blame. Regardless, it is still proof that gay marriage does cause social problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
That you see pro gay rights as both an atheist and anti Christian agenda is even more telling and very sad. Great emotional stress by having to serve a gay couple once? AND where in your religion does it even mention a wedding cake let alone who can get one and who can't?
The Bible says we are too flee from sexual immorality. That's broad enough to be applicable here. Yes, the business owners suffered much much more than the gay couple. They had their businesses destroyed, ridiculously overblown fines, received death threats and vandalism. It's anger and venom on your side of the fence. My side? We just want to be left alone and not forced to have any dealing with gay marriage.
Really, then I guess all those polls claiming that the majority of Americans love gay marriage are bogus then.
Society didn't change overnight.
The problem wouldn't exist if people were not practicing sexual immorality. It's a real problem that sex offenders have difficulty finding jobs. But using your reason, it's the people who are not comfortable being around them who are the ones to blame. Regardless, it is still proof that gay marriage does cause social problems.
The Bible says we are too flee from sexual immorality. That's broad enough to be applicable here. Yes, the business owners suffered much much more than the gay couple. They had their businesses destroyed, ridiculously overblown fines, received death threats and vandalism. It's anger and venom on your side of the fence. My side? We just want to be left alone and not forced to have any dealing with gay marriage.
You always ignore the death threats against the gay couples.
You wish to have nothing to do with same sex marriage for a business, a government employee or an elected official and that no one regardless of their position needs to provide services for them. That it us the fault of gays if they are bullied about. You also complain that children of other religions are not taught your prayers and religion in public schools.
There can be no compromise with you if you are willing to have even the government refuse to serve gays. Do you have any practical solution other than to deny gays equal rights and protections under the law? At one time there was the death penalty for sodomy. Would this be acceptable? And you think denying them rights is no big deal and they should just deal with it but having to provide them with the same goods and services that everyone else has rights to is an attack on Christianity. So putting up stories of lesbian couples and having their lives threatened plus the threat of having children taken away is your idea of just wanting to be left alone!? Those overblown fines were for attempts to humiliate gays in social media. If you were really worried about sin you would be more honest about what you claim. There were definitely death threats against both sides. I guess I don't think a dead baker is a more tragic event then a dead want to be customer. You seem to have little regard for the person who was refused service.
If gays wishing to be part of society are the problems and are to blame for people verbally or physically attacking them, in your mind, I don't know what to say.
Wrong. The FACTS are clear as crystal that homosexual behavior leads to more suicide and spreading of diseases. Children raised by homosexual parents are more likely to be bullied and picked on as well.
Here's a look at the first country to ever legalize gay marriage.
And that's in a country that is 2/3 non-religious. So it is simply false to say that there are zero social consequences. Of course, you are ignoring the one right in your face. Christian businesses owners enduring great financial and emotional stress because your camp wants to force us to embrace sin.
The disgusting reality as I see it is that atheists are only passionately against the business owners because gay marriage serves as a vehicle to destroy Christianity in America.
Well, in my school, every home-based case of physical or sexual child abuse that we came aware of was in a christian family. So, we'd better outlaw christianity.
...
So what if a customer came in and wanted a cake with a message slamming gays, or making fun of fat people, or anti-suburbanites? What about a swastika cake? Does a baker have a right to refuse to create a cake with those messages? Or does he need to write any message the customer wants? What if a customer wants a custom Halloween cake, but the baker doesn't like Halloween and states he doesn't do custom Halloween cakes. Does he not have a right to limit what types of custom messages he puts on the cakes?
Now, he's not refusing to sell to those customers at all. They can buy any in-stock cake. He will even sell them a custom-request cake if it's something like a simple birthday cake.
But is he really casting judgement? Just because he doesn't like Halloween, do you think he really cares if other people like Halloween? Is it a big deal to him or the customer if they go to the supermarket to buy a Halloween cake?
I've already answered this question, but in case your reading skills failed, I'll answer it again. If he advertises something like this (which I have seen in bakeries) -- Cakes decorated to order -- then yes, he needs to fill the order. If he offers 25 standard decorating choices (which I have also seen when they have a book of decorations they do), then he should not have to fill the special order.
I am astonished that jeffbase puts continuing discrimination and bullying forward as justification for continued discrimination and bullying, citing the RESULTS of that bullying in higher suicide rates for additional reason. I should not be. The demagogues of hate play on every nasty human emotion in their perfidy and call it religion.
I get fed up with you christians using false equivalencies for your arguments. I'm not going to dignify that post with an answer.
What is false about it? It is just another form of love, right? I would like to know from a logical standpoint while atheists suddenly are celebrating homosexuality yet would be against other types of unions.
I get fed up with you christians using false equivalencies for your arguments. I'm not going to dignify that post with an answer.
It's one of jeff's most go-to ploys. And always despicable.
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