Colorado Supreme Court Rules You Can't Cite Religion For Not Baking A Cake (belief, exist)
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It's not the issue? If I choose to be the seller, then how is it unfair that I am required to follow the same laws every seller must follow?
It would be unfair if some sellers offering goods and services to the public were required to follow a particular law but other sellers were not. But, that is not the case.
I continue to think your argument is ridiculous.
Because the law is unfair, unconstitutional and un-American.
What prevented black people from just going to another place? What prevented women from going to another place? What prevented the atheist from going to another place?
You're argument is just plain ridiculous. You go into business KNOWING what the laws are. If you choose to do it anyways, then follow the laws. End of story. Don't like them? Don't open a business.
I understand as a business owner, you may think differently than most people on this issue. That doesn't change reality though. It is not discrimination to choose where to buy a cake. It is discrimination if you are told that you are not allowed to buy a cake because you are a gay couple. You seem to not understand the difference.
I have asked you this before, and you have never really answered, so I'll ask again.
Where do you draw the line? Are you fine with ALL businesses discriminating against anyone they choose, or only certain ones? Are you okay with a gay couple being told they can't rent an apartment because they are gay? Are you okay with the lone black family in a town of 1,000 being refused business everywhere nearby? Are you fine with someone being forced to drive 30 miles outside of their town to go grocery shopping because they only store closer doesn't serve their kind?
If you are not okay with even 1 of these things, then you made my point. If you are okay with all of this, then you are showing your true colors.
Fine, then create a law where business owners do not have to get involved with with gay weddings if there is a religious objection. That's really the only point of conflict here. All your examples are necessities in life and should not be denied to anyone. A wedding cake is not.
Because the law is unfair, unconstitutional and un-American.
Are we bringing Mom and apple pie into it now? What goes into determining that a thing is American or un-American? I am guessing that it has to do with whether or not YOU agree with it.
I am an American citizen from birth. I think it is un-American to deny basic goods and services selectively to people because you wish to judge their personal moral decisions. I think that because I grew up being taught that this was immoral on multiple levels, not least that I don't have the right to impose my moral judgments and beliefs on others. That's known as "being a busybody" and in practice as "fascism".
You are an American citizen, I assume, from birth as well. You think the opposite of me because you grew up having this sort of behavior modeled to you as "American" behavior apparently.
In many countries this would be considered an example of the "Ugly American" type of behavior.
But let's just drop this discussion of (un)American this or that and focus on the basic ethics and morality involved. That is the actual question: is it morally justifiable to deny service to people based on religious dogma? Whether it's "American" or not is a separate and largely meaningless issue.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Because the law is unfair, unconstitutional and un-American.
The arbitrators of the Constitution, the courts, disagree with you, and they are in a much better position to do so then you are. Those courts are pretty American last I checked.
Indeed. What IS "American"? It's all of us. Isn't that correct?
We're living here. We're citizens. So we're ALL American. All different and all American.
"American" doesn't mean crinolines, pie and whiteness. Or, well...actually, it can mean those things. If one of us dresses and acts and is that way. But it's not exclusive...actually, it never was...all that was some dream that never actually played out as sweetly and beautifully as the 50s sitcoms would have had people believe...just ask any non-white non-male non minimum of middle-class non-straight person who actually lived during that "all-American" time period and you'll get the truth. Heck, even ask some people who DID meet those criteria but felt stifled, suffocated and forced into a mold they never really felt they fit.
"American" has to encompass a whole lot of different people without discrimination, and yes, that's a tall order, and yes, it means constant change. Everything changes, every single thing, including "America." There can be no one single narrow definition of what's REALLY American and when one is present, that REALLY AMERICAN state of being always magically seems to match the determiner exactly, to the letter. What a weird coincidence.
I hearby declare that REAL Americans are short with green eyes, love the Dead Files and the Renaissance Pleasure Faire, are obsessed with history, and tell a lot of bad jokes. If you don't match this description...well, get the hell out of my bakery.
Fine, then create a law where business owners do not have to get involved with with gay weddings if there is a religious objection. That's really the only point of conflict here. All your examples are necessities in life and should not be denied to anyone. A wedding cake is not.
So now there are qualifiers on who can and can not discriminate, huh? Well, who are you to take away THEIR religious freedom? Why should a small town store owner be forced to serve black people if his religion says he shouldn't? Why should an apartment complex be forced to rent to a gay couple if their religion says not to? You are now denying them THEIR religious freedom, Jeff!
It is quite irrelevant as to what the item is if you use religious freedom as an excuse to discriminate. You can not on one hand say that businesses should be free to serve whoever they damn well please, then on the other say, "Oh, but only certain businesses that sell certain products".
It's never been about you, or any person except the baker--who has a moral and religious right to not participate in an immoral activity if his convictions prevent him.
Living here in Colorado, the discussion on this case included the fact that the court made the decision, in part, because it determined selling a cake is NOT participating in any ceremony---anymore than mowing the lawn before an outside wedding would be.
Further, you and your kind practice hypocrisy in that you state religious freedoms do NOT extend to physicians or health facilities nor to operators of PUBLIC transportation. It's complete hypocrisy and and morally repulsive for you to "excuse" moral objections based on the "necessity" of the service. And, of course, YOU and your group are the ones who will pick and choose and tell your own group when they can or cannot discriminate.
And no one can or even will attempt to explain why my own ancestors were wrong for treating black people the way you wish to treat the LGBTQ community. They did it because God ordained it morally, your exact argument---and as laws changed I remember, as a young teenager, the grumbling that the nation was becoming "godless." If MORALITY is the guiding rule then MORALTY is equally good for discrimination by racists, physicians, bus drivers, pharmaceutical store owners---anyone. Then you can glory in what the main purpose of your ugly belief accomplishes---divide people into "them" and "us," exactly what my racist ancestors desired.
With regard to this issue, and you being a "man of the cloth," this is complete and total hypocrisy with regard to Jesus' example in the gospels. He even dined with his enemies, the Pharisees, but you are teaching that He would have nothing to do with certain types of sinners.
Seeing Jesus in your words and the actions you would take and bless, is impossible.
So now there are qualifiers on who can and can not discriminate, huh? Well, who are you to take away THEIR religious freedom? Why should a small town store owner be forced to serve black people if his religion says he shouldn't? Why should an apartment complex be forced to rent to a gay couple if their religion says not to? You are now denying them THEIR religious freedom, Jeff!
We all know who's allowed to discriminate.
White Christian middle to upper-class males.
They're the only real Americans. Plus, I mean, that's so traditional.
Nobody else can discriminate so the rest of us better take a seat on the back of the bus! And we'd better get used to not eating cake. Ah well...I guess it's Skittles for me. I have ovaries and I don't go to church. Or I guess I could always get into the kitchen where I belong and bake my own cake.
The court said: "Because his cakeshop does not have a religious purpose, he is not protected by the religious exemptions in the state’s nondiscrimination law."
What religious purpose do you see existing in a bake shop? If there is none, you have no reason to discriminate on the basis of religion.
They're the only real Americans. Plus, I mean, that's so traditional.
Nobody else can discriminate so the rest of us better take a seat on the back of the bus! And we'd better get used to not eating cake. Ah well...I guess it's Skittles for me. I have ovaries and I don't go to church. Or I guess I could always get into the kitchen where I belong and bake my own cake.
Yep, which is why I brought up those questions. It is always funny to see someone say, "Well, it is against their religious freedom, so they shouldn't have to do it."
And then you say, "Well, what about this group? Should they be able to do it?"
"Oh no, that isn't the same. THEY aren't allowed to do that, only certain people are!"
Well, if you use religion as an excuse, then it either has to apply across the board, or you prove yourself wrong. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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But it's not exclusive...actually, it never was...all that was some dream that never actually played out as sweetly and beautifully as the 50s sitcoms would have had people believe...just ask any non-white non-male non minimum of middle-class non-straight person who actually lived during that "all-American" time period and you'll get the truth. Heck, even ask some people who DID meet those criteria but felt stifled, suffocated and forced into a mold they never really felt they fit.
What a weird coincidence.
