Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-01-2016, 12:55 PM
 
2,826 posts, read 2,369,063 times
Reputation: 1011

Advertisements

Let me clear the air for a moment. There's alot of people (me included) who have in the past kinda had the outlook of "Atheism is evil. Mrgrgr..." Atheism is actually, aside from the assertion that there is no God/gods/afterlife/etc, is simply secularism. I've likewise seen plenty of the opposite "Religion is evil. Mrgrgr..." I'll get to that but first we will talk about secularism.

(The "Mrgrgr" thing is from Bravely Default. It's a meme. Bascially, angry sounds)

Atheism as a viewpoint, is actually none of my business. If Joe Stone over there wants to not believe in evil spirits, it is not up to me to tell him not to. Which leads to the second issue, equivalency. I would assume good faith on your part, and that you won't badmouth my religion. Let's agree to disagree.

On the other hand, I'm gonna talk about secularism. Secularism is the idea that there is a clear-cut birth and death of all living things, that only the physical world matters, and silly superstitious nonsense is for the birds. There may also be some Zen-like "live for the moment" stuff, but devoid of any inner focus or purpose. There are some social, moral, and political issues with secularism. Ostensibly, it's popular because if there is no outside "higher power" telling them what to do. There is an increased belief in logic and reason, and that the world we see is all that is real. Which is fine, but as a belief set this is called empiricism. We also have a belief in evolution, which is fine (aside from the fact that it is in fact a plan of sorts, so calling it random chance is screwy logic, but we won't dwell on that), but also a strong belief that our DNA controls much of who were are, not some God. Combine this with several ideas about his discrimination is inborn "privilege" and we get a sense of fatalism. All of these are ways that humans can cop out of taking responsibility for their own lives. As I say, all this makes secularism popular. But there is a problem. As people point out from various religions, without God people have no moral authority. This is incorrect, the secular world has two authorities. Shame and the state. If you notice any secular society, it is about how productive you are, how much money you make, how pretty you are, etc. This are all signs of a heavily meritocratic system, where worth comes from being one of those people. Those who do not belong to those people are shamed. Only, to be one of the privileged people, you fall under a very narrow margin, the people with the most stuff that are sorta white but not white enough to have white privilege, who make enough, who don't say unpopular things, who are cool, who don't have embarrassing social or medical issues. How do we enforce this? With the state. As countries get increasingly secular, they tend to become increasingly statist. Mesopotamia, Rome, Nazi-era Germany, USSR, and China, all of these were secular (I say secular, not atheist, because while the latter three were atheist, the former two had gods. But their culture promoted gods as something to be bought, owning trinkets and statues rather than seeking personal enlightenment). All of these as a result of strong state, are naturally autocratic, dictatorial, and above all oppressive.

Let me clarify this. It is possible to be a secular Christian. You believe in God, but essentially share the mindset of a fatalistic rules lawyer. This would place you usually in the fundamentalist mindset, where wrath of God is more important than the love of God. One that holds Hell over people's heads, as something to happen if you don't follow said rules. In fact, the combination of this and heavy atheist presence (who are ironically at odds with each other), are part of why this country is becoming more secular and statist.

The state's power is fear. You are "free to do what you want" but there is an undercurrent that if you do not make enough, work hard enough, you will die. They count in fact on your lack of belief in an afterlife to instill a sense that if you do not measure up, the only life you've got will be lost. Not only that, but if you become a criminal under their increasingly narrow and oppressive laws, you will die. I shouldn't have to point out that this is a bad thing. But I apparently do because people don't get it. This is fear.

I'm also going to talk about religion, mainly because it seems like while statistically atheists know more about the surface-level background (I've seen the religion test for the survey, I pretty much got a perfect score too), they have the essential notion that either "all religions are basically the same" or "Christianity claims it is the only right religion, so they must think all others are going to hell." One, no they aren't, and two, only certain Christians think that. World religions are similar, but let's see if I can make this make sense...

Let's start with the meaning of religion. Religion means to "Re:Connect" (re -> again, ligere -> connection (from the same word root as ligaments, the muscles that hold bones and stuff together)). Despite numerous problems of religion, this is the goal of religion. It is a matter of having good leaders and good goals.

The Purpose of Religion | WaheguruNet

All religions have different belief sets, whether there is one God, many gods, no gods, one afterlife, no afterlife, and what each consists of, and how to get there. So let's start with Judaism, then Christianity, Hinduism, and Taoism.

Judaism holds "Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad." Or, "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is one." This is shown at weddings too, breaking a glass to symbolize that creation was originally One, and has been broken into pieces, but much of their lore involves a dream to unify these parts back into a perfect creation. It was influenced by a number of other teachings, and developed its afterlife theory from basically a place of darkness where everyone goes to more of a real afterlife.

Christianity comes from Judaism, but in some ways is completely different. Jesus was originally known as Emmanuel or "God with us" and much of his teachings reflect this. Now, on the surface, it looks like Jesus at some points is trying to promote a religious monopoly when he says "no one can enter the kingndom of heaven but through me." But, first, not all religions believe in the same Heaven, and second recall who Jesus is. Jesus is "God with us," the idea being that God shares essence with his creation (see Judaism and Oneness). Anyone who treats others with love, who helps people in nursing homes, who is in the business of doing good work for social justice or freedom or anything of value, is a follower of Jesus. Even if they stay the hell away from church or belong to another religion entirely. This is the meaning of the sharing of the bread and wine. Imagine the whole bread and whole wine (then recite "Sh'ma Yisra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad" for added fun), and envision each person living in this world as a piece of this one bread. Otherwise, you've missed the point of Christianity, it's not about being a "good Christian" that's the secular mentality, it's about our intrinsic worth as humans, as part of the whole that is God.

Next Hinduism. Ostensibly, this is completely different, being polytheistic, having an afterlife that is mainly reincarnation, etc. But, not so fast. This week I've been read Deepak Chopra's Life After Death, and it elaborates on the astral plane (which is essentially a merge-up of Heaven/Hell in a single location). And among scholars of Hinduism, there are numerous deities, then there is a trinity of sorts (with each being an aspect of existence), and then finally, there is just Brahman.

Finally, Taoism. In some ways, Taoism is very much a compatible religion with atheism, but not all. It is very much a "deity optional" religion, owing more interest to concepts of Yin/Yang, how to rule a state, and the nature of reality. It also lacks a normal "afterlife" per se, spending more effort discussing immortality. I can try to explain this in depth but "the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao." There is a parable about a butterfly.

Quote:
One night, Zhuangzi dreamed of being a butterfly — a happy butterfly, showing off and doing things as he pleased, unaware of being Zhuangzi. Suddenly he awoke, drowsily, Zhuangzi again. And he could not tell whether it was Zhuangzi who had dreamt the butterfly or the butterfly dreaming Zhuangzi. But there must be some difference between them! This is called 'the transformation of things'.
The sense that real and unreal are two sides of a coin, and we cannot have a fixed perception of "this is real", and "this isn't real." All things are potentially either.

I could do Buddhism too, but this is already long. Basically, similar to Taoism and Christianity.

Put 'em together, and whatta ya got? (Bibidi Babidi Buu) A religion that accepts the Oneness of the universe, that accepts the indwelling of this in all living things, a religion that sees many manifestations of the same truth and an afterlife that is largely based on the person (as Deepak Chopra puts it "Ironically, someone who has been a skeptic in this world will likely be a skeptic in the astral planes; he won't realize he's in the very place he doesn't believe exists"), and finally the Yin/Yang and an idea very similar to what is shown in the Matrix. Each of these religions are very different, but they meld together to form a larger picture.

This is hope.

Taoism states that "hope is as hollow as fear." When explained, it mentions that many of these keep you from seeing the truth. That they create false perceptions. The false perception here is that there is a difference between life and death, that the world we see is an accurate representation of the real world.

This is Good News, not because all of us Christians can get their special cloud Heaven. But because if we don't need a specific hope and we don't need to be afraid, we can truly go where we want and do what we want. Not "after life". We have no way of knowing that this is not the afterlife in disguise. If we already died, we have nothing to fear from death.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-01-2016, 01:23 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,595,058 times
Reputation: 5664
You made some deep observations and presented them in an articulate manner.
My time was not wasted in the reading.
When you have some time, listen to this:
//www.city-data.com/forum/space...potential.html
He gets into some real perceptive spiritual/science overlay.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2016, 02:37 PM
 
28,432 posts, read 11,587,667 times
Reputation: 2070
secular humanist, this and that.

It was a good read. thanks
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2016, 02:50 PM
 
9,345 posts, read 4,328,055 times
Reputation: 3023
Good post but I would disagree with paragraph six. I do not think that there is much difference if any between an atheist and a religious person when it comes to fear from the state. I do not think that I am more likely to die that you or Jeff or Vizio, we all will die. The others may believe that there is an afterlife for them but I would guess that for the most part we all want to be happy and healthy and be good to others. You still have more to learn , the difference between an atheist and most Christians or Jews is almost zero in the big picture and I would think the difference between a mainstream Christian and a Bible Believing Christian is greater. The of course is just my guess.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-06-2016, 06:31 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,377,197 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Atheism is actually, aside from the assertion that there is no God/gods/afterlife/etc, is simply secularism.
It is not clear to me what you hope to gain by making a long vacuous post which is doing nothing but re-defining words that already have definitions. Atheism and Secularism are entirely different things. Your attempt to conflate them is as crass as it is false. And in fact a huge number of theists are secular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
I would assume good faith on your part, and that you won't badmouth my religion. Let's agree to disagree.
You can pocket your assumptions here then because I will happily bad mouth religion where it is justified to do so. For example religious is unnecessarily divisive. This is a simple fact which I am happy to bad mouth it with, in the same way as I am happy to call a spade a spade. Your transparent attempts to silence people are simply a fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
On the other hand, I'm gonna talk about secularism. Secularism is the idea that there is a clear-cut birth and death of all living things, that only the physical world matters, and silly superstitious nonsense is for the birds.
Again with the making up your own definitions for words that already have one. This is not a correct definition of secularism. At all. It is closer to being a definition of materialism I guess, but even then it would not be perfect. In fact to be honest I find myself wondering if you are willfully redefining words at all now... or do you yourself simply not know what the words mean so you are simply making it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
Ostensibly, it's popular because if there is no outside "higher power" telling them what to do.
What does this sentence even mean? Grammatically the sentence is incomplete. The If clause has been left incomplete without, for example, a "then" structure. Not only do your definitions of words make no sense, many of your sentences make grammatically no sense either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
We also have a belief in evolution, which is fine (aside from the fact that it is in fact a plan of sorts, so calling it random chance is screwy logic, but we won't dwell on that)
Yea I can imagine you do not want to dwell on your own fabrications lest they be shown to be false. But I am happy to dwell on them. Evolution is not just random chance. It is a process of which random chance is an element. If you are going to talk about things like evolution, at least take SOME time to learn what it is you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
but also a strong belief that our DNA controls much of who were are, not some God.
Sure because the substantiation that DNA influences who and what we are is manifold. The substantiation that there is even a god out there.... let alone that it influences us on any level.... is precisely zero. Especially from the likes of you yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
we get a sense of fatalism.
Who is this "we" exactly and who are you pretending you are speaking for. Speak for yourself, you do not appear to be speaking for many others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
All of these are ways that humans can cop out of taking responsibility for their own lives. As I say, all this makes secularism popular.
Bull. You have it exactly backwards here. It is the people who appeal to things like fate, a plan, a guiding creator.... who are abdicating responsibility. It is atheists who realize that responsibility lies entirely and solely with them and each other as humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
But there is a problem. As people point out from various religions, without God people have no moral authority.
Except there is post after post, in thread after thread, on this forum alone of atheists explaining how and why they hold their moral foundation without needing to assume any nonsense on the basis of insufficient evidence. That you want to IGNORE all of them, does not mean they are not there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
As countries get increasingly secular, they tend to become increasingly statist. Mesopotamia, Rome, Nazi-era Germany, USSR, and China, all of these were secular
Except no they were not, and they bear NO resemblance to the kind of states ACTUAL atheists and secularists promote and strive for. So you are simply pulling total tosh out of a stack of historical revisionism that you have merely made up on the spot now. Replacing metaphysical and supernatural religions with state religions.... is not the same as "secular". You simply do not know, or are pretending you do not know, what secularism is or entails. You. Are. Making. It. Up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
they have the essential notion that either "all religions are basically the same"
And yet despite all the atheists I have met in my life, which is a lot through my local work with AI and my international work with AAI.... I have met hardly any who express the notions you have merely invented and shoved in their mouths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
This week I've been read Deepak Chopra's Life After Death
I could have guessed your resources were as poor and distorted as they, for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
and it elaborates on the astral plane
By "elaborate" do you mean he has finally offered some evidence such a thing actually exists? Or by "elaborate" is it just more of his usual crap of making things up, then talking more and more about it? Much like you are doing on this forum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144 View Post
A religion that accepts the Oneness of the universe
Who needs a religion for that? You just need a dictionary. Look up what the word "universe" means. Actually understand the word which, again, I do not think you do.... and you will see why no religion is required.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-06-2016, 10:38 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,088 posts, read 20,738,332 times
Reputation: 5930
I may read it through again, as it seemed to leave it all in the 'whatever...' area, but mention of Deepak Chophra and the Matrix and...That pulled the credibility plug for me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-06-2016, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Hong Kong
689 posts, read 549,785 times
Reputation: 92
Christianity is more about a scenario with a message.

There's a message saying that "there's a bomb in a public facility." People are thus asked to leave the area. The first handed witnesses sacrificed their own lives in order to bring the message out.

In this scenario, Christians are those trying hard to spread the message because they believe it's true. In the end, it's each individual's own life for him to decide either to leave that area or to stay.

Christianity happens to be the only way which a message like this can pass across the boarder of 2000 years to reach today's humans.

That is to say, if such a scenario is a truth there's no other way round for such a truth to be conveyed except for employing a religion for the conveying of such a message.

That's why today's humans have only one document (the Holy Bible) which is reconcilable for us to tell that the message conveyed today is the same message conveyed 2000 years ago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:56 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top