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You've been misreading what I'm saying, then. I'd encourage you to re-read my arguments. The Cosmological Argument does not identify WHO or WHAT the cause/creator is. It only points to the fact that there is one.
But aren't you the only one here, confidently, I might add, stating WHO the WHO is and it just so happen to be the biblical god? And you are coming to that conclusion because a book, written a relatively short time ago (when you consider the course of human history), happens to say "in the beginning God created...?
But aren't you the only one here, confidently, I might add, stating WHO the WHO is and it just so happen to be the biblical god? And you are coming to that conclusion because a book, written a relatively short time ago (when you consider the course of human history), happens to say "in the beginning God created...?
I've never stated that the Cosmological Argument proves that the God of the Bible is the Creator. It's a proof for God--that's it. Once we establish that point, then we can move on to other discussions about WHO God is.
I've never stated that the Cosmological Argument proves that the God of the Bible is the Creator. It's a proof for God--that's it. Once we establish that point, then we can move on to other discussions about WHO God is.
You haven't even shown it is proof for any God of any kind . What you have clearly shown is that even your best argument is fundamentally flawed because it contradicts itself by claiming nothing can exist without a creator and then proceeding to claim that God does , but oh, that's special and doesn't count .
Nor have you shown that the presumption that all things need a creator is correct . We have agreed the material portion of the universe was created by something, but this doesn't address the energy of the BB that was transformed into our material universe .
Last edited by wallflash; 06-25-2016 at 11:52 AM..
I've never stated that the Cosmological Argument proves that the God of the Bible is the Creator. It's a proof for God--that's it. Once we establish that point, then we can move on to other discussions about WHO God is.
Vizio, this is what you are essentially saying or getting at no matter what you started off with here:
"the Cosmological Argument proves that the God of the Bible is the Creator."
No matter how "open" to any other alternative you are TRYING to appear to be, that is where you want to end your argument. What others have been telling you is that your firm "belief" amounts to nothing more than faith as it CANNOT be proven in any form or fashion because it cannot be tested, duplicated or observed.
There are quite a few creation stories out there. All the others probably sound silly or implausible to you, but the biblical myth about the same event makes perfect sense to you and that is the one you prefer to go with. Part of the reason, I am sure, is that the REST of the story seems to make perfect sense to you so, it stands to reason, the start must also be true and perfectly sensed for you also.
You haven't even shown it is proof for any God of any kind . What you have clearly shown is that even your best argument is fundamentally flawed because it contradicts itself by claiming nothing can exist without a creator and then proceeding to claim that God does , but oh, that's special and doesn't count .
Nor have you shown that the presumption that all things need a creator is correct . We have agreed the material portion of the universe was created by something, but this doesn't address the energy of the BB that was transformed into our material universe .
AS I have said, I've established the point that the universe was created. You agreed to that point.
Would you like to move on to the rest of the discussion, or are you going to try to put up roadblocks and derail it further?
Vizio, this is what you are essentially saying or getting at no matter what you started off with here:
"the Cosmological Argument proves that the God of the Bible is the Creator."
No matter how "open" to any other alternative you are TRYING to appear to be, that is where you want to end your argument. What others have been telling you is that your firm "belief" amounts to nothing more than faith as it CANNOT be proven in any form or fashion because it cannot be tested, duplicated or observed.
There are quite a few creation stories out there. All the others probably sound silly or implausible to you, but the biblical myth about the same event makes perfect sense to you and that is the one you prefer to go with. Part of the reason, I am sure, is that the REST of the story seems to make perfect sense to you so, it stands to reason, the start must also be true and perfectly sensed for you also.
You really ought to go back and re-read what I've actually said. You might be surprised. It's absolutely clear that you have not done that.
You really ought to go back and re-read what I've actually said. You might be surprised. It's absolutely clear that you have not done that.
Viz, I just happen to not be beating around the bush. That is where you want to go with this. Your argument is going to be and HAS been, "the universe is here and my god created it." This then enables you to enter the entire biblical narrative into the fray and thus all things are filtered through that world view, end of the story.
What Wallflash and Raifus have been doing is holding your feet to fire BEFORE you can even get to the "God-did-it" argument you so want to get to. I'm just on the front end before you get there.
AS I have said, I've established the point that the universe was created. You agreed to that point.
Would you like to move on to the rest of the discussion, or are you going to try to put up roadblocks and derail it further?
Please quit acting so pompously superior . As I have said repeatedly , you have made no point that any scientists didn't already understand , and you make yourself look silly here pretending you have . You seem to not be up to date on your knowledge of physics , which does not claim the universe to be uncreated . The debate , again, is NOT whether our material universe has a beginning and was created from non material stuff , but whether what created it is a supernatural being or a natural force .
I pointed out that science was not in disagreement with this some posts ago, yet you still act as if you have stumped us with some new knowledge we didn't possess. Think it through before further embarrassing yourself . Is it your position that those who date the BEGINNING of the universe to some 14 billion years ago don't understand and posit that the universe isn't eternal and was created by something ?
Please get on with your proof of God and quit needlessly lecturing others about stuff they already know .
Last edited by wallflash; 06-25-2016 at 12:46 PM..
Please get on with your proof of God and quit needlessly lecturing others about stuff they already know .
Good to hear.
Now, we've agreed that the universe had a beginning, so the question is what caused it. Was it a personal being, or not? That brings up the question of "necessary and sufficient conditions".
Both are needed before something happens. "Necessary conditions" are the basic requirements for the universe to exist. "Sufficient Conditions" is the trigger that makes it happen. As soon as both are present, it happens. SOMETHING had to have caused the "Sufficient conditions" to begin at some point.
Does that make sense?
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