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Now, we've agreed that the universe had a beginning, so the question is what caused it. Was it a personal being, or not? That brings up the question of "necessary and sufficient conditions".
Both are needed before something happens. "Necessary conditions" are the basic requirements for the universe to exist. "Sufficient Conditions" is the trigger that makes it happen. As soon as both are present, it happens. SOMETHING had to have caused the "Sufficient conditions" to begin at some point.
And that isn't just me talking. If you had evidence, the entire world would be rocking back on its heels and the debate would be over.
But it's not. Which means the evidence (so-called) isn't anywhere near conclusive enough to prove that a god exists much less that your specific god exists.
It's not just me, Vizio. I'm not a self back-patter. I have had FAR too many people say so for me to adopt any sort of false modesty on this point.
I haven't the slightest idea.
And neither do you.
Not that this question has anything whatsoever to do with any kind of evidence for the existence of a god, mind you, and it certainly offers no evidence for the existence of your specific god.
It only represents a question science hasn't answered yet.
Just like there was a time when science hadn't yet answered the question: How did the sun get here? I'm sure at some point there were deity worshipers, perhaps even Christians, who used the same argument regarding the sun that you're making with the origin of life.
"Well ... since YOU don't know how the sun originated and since the best minds in the world haven't figured out how it happened, the only possible explanation is that God created it with magic!"
Of course today we know all about the sun and the life cycles of stars. Even you would no longer claim that the sun just "poofed" into being the way you now claim that humans "poofed" into being. Unless, of course, you're a Young Earth Creationist which you have said repeatedly that you're not.
Therefore, this notion that stumping science with the "How did life begin?" question is somehow proving the existence of a god is just as nonsensical now as stumping science with "Where did the sun come from?" was then.
By the same token, there's simply no reason to expect science to have all of the answers today any more than there was a reason to expect science to have all of the answers 100, 300, 500, or 1000 years ago. Just what makes you think that, today, science stands at the pinnacle of knowledge? What makes you think that, today, all that can be known is known? All that can be discovered has been discovered? Thus, if we still do not know where life came from, it will never be known and, therefore, it must have a supernatural (ergo, divine) cause?
There's some super-flawed reasoning with the cosmological argument. There always was.
I have made this exact point on here before. As an atheist "I don't know" is an intellectually honest answer to the question. What about the idea that super-powerful aliens who are far advanced to us in a connected but invisible universe to ours, set in motion the Big Bang and voila here we are. Now let's worship and pray and respect the invisible super-powerful alien race we have never personally met and make a religion about it. This super-powerful alien race idea is not something I believe in myself because I see no evidence for it as I see no evidence for the Bible God or any other God idea to explain why we are here. Until credible and substantial evidence arises for the God idea or the superpowerful aliens doing it, I'm unconvinced. The sick and disgusting thing about Christianity and other major religions I find is the psychologically damaging idea that if you don't buy into the God idea, you are going to be punished for eternity by that God. That is deeply troubling to me. It's the reason Pastor Vizio gets no respect from me on this board. He actually makes a living preaching this superstitious nonsense to people.
As a side note, I laugh at Pastor Vizio's comment about atheists not seeing the evidence for his God. There are 1.6 billion Muslims that are on the planet who are saying Allah is the God and that the Quran is his communication device. They believe that they communicate with Allah and that Allah gives them peace. Sounds familiar doesn't it. The same thoughts are expressed by Christians like Pastor Vizio about this so called creator God and their relationship to him/ her / it. Hmm....as I have always said, if some creator God exists, he/ she / it is an absolutely crappy communicator for the whole planet. Imagine Bible God every day thinking..."those damn Muslims, if only they would see that the Bible is my communication tool and that Jesus is my son....oh my..I'm not getting through to them apparently..plus they were raised with those beliefs making my job that much harder of getting them to believe in me." It's all so laughable.
Last edited by Texan2008; 06-25-2016 at 10:14 PM..
It has been known, scientifically, since 1956 that the earth's age is a little more than 4.5 billion years.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
It's been theorized, yes. But there are plenty of reasons to doubt that, if you're willing to listen.
No, there's really no reason to doubt the age of the earth. Perhaps the details are off a little (like 4.3 or 4.6 billion years), but an age of only a few thousand years is ridiculous. The dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago.
It's not a problem of somebody being unwilling to listen.
The fact that the universe exists testifies to the fact that it had to be created.
No it doesn't. The existence of the universe implies nothing about its beginning.
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No--you don't. But you'd rather believe in "evolutiondidit" or "bigbangdidit" than God. I get that. That's just your belief, and you don't need evidence. You choose to believe it.
I've never heard anybody theorize that evolution explained the origin of the universe. Have you got a link that supports that?
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But yes, unless there is another viable option, the only logical thing would be to believe in a Creator. But I know--you guys are not exactly logical, are you?
That isn't the only logical thing. As a matter of fact, it isn't logical at all.
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I am actually a Young Earther. I'm not suggesting someone is a heretic if they think the earth is older, but I do believe it's less than 20k years old.
Human beings have existed on the earth longer than that.
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If we have an antonymic pair of solutions: "There is a personal creator", or "There is not a personal creator", we know that disproving one proves the other. There is no third option.
No, we don't know that there is no third option. Or fourth. Or fifth.
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We know that it's impossible for this universe to come into existence without a personal creator causing it.
We do not know that.
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That's called "science". It's been proven. There is no possibility. None.
You have a very unusual definition of "science."
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So the only remaining option is that there was a creator.
No it isn't. "I don't know" is a perfectly valid option.
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I have yet to seee you point out the issues with the cosmological argument.
No one needs to point out any issues with the cosmological argument. The concept itself fails. The only reason you can give for accepting the argument is that you have no other explanation for the existence of the universe. All anybody has to say is "I do not accept that the existence of the universe is proof that a God created it." There is absolutely no defensible reason to accept the cosmological argument.
The Christian God is evidence for the Muslim God. The Christian God can't exist without a creator, so we know that the Muslim God created the Christian God.
God is trusted in, so the God aspect of Christian God and Muslim God, if Christian and Muslim are separate from God.
God is trusted in, so the God aspect of Christian God and Muslim God, if Christian and Muslim are separate from God.
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