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I'm not sure this will matter . If a person cannot stand to let someone operate basically a private club ( as you say about churches but which can also be applied to a membership site ) that constitutes a membership only dating site that doesn't provide a dating service to gays , despite the fact that there are other dating sites for gays ( which no doubt do NOT provide dating services for men looking for women ) , and the demand here is that this one site alter its model to serve gays , I'm not sure a church's rights will matter .
Except that the dating site in question is a for-profit business and churches are a special privileged class of non profit organization.
In my heart of hearts, as an unbeliever and one of those lib-ruhls, would I want to strip churches of those protections if I could? No. I would not. If for no other reason than that it's not necessary. Some churches used to argue in favor of slavery (some still argue in favor of white supremacy, against miscegenation, etc). Why is this now basically not happening or at least is greatly marginalized and driven underground? Because society moved in another direction and that deprives such churches of members who support such notions. In fact most people are disgusted by such notions.
So it is a self limiting problem. The real threat to the identity of churches who regard homosexuality as sin is not jack-booted thugs dragging them off to some dungeon or forcing doctrine on them at gunpoint. It is a dearth of people interested in joining and supporting such churches. In fact it doesn't really even require revulsion on the part of the public to effect change in church doctrine. It simply requires lack of interest. The same kind of church used to preach against going to the movies or watching TV or wearing skirts shorter than ankle-length. It's been probably three generations or more since people were willing to wear dated fashions and forego popular entertainments, and lo and behold, the teaching against these things is so muted as to amount to nothing.
I think the difficulty fundamentalists have in understanding this dynamic has to do with them buying into the notion that church doctrine is immutable. It is not. It changes constantly. It is just usually a generation or three behind the rest of society. Society will drag the fundamentalists into the 21st century kicking and screaming over the next couple of decades, by simply refusing to reward them for being retrograde.
This also speaks to what I have always said about morality. The only kind of morality that ANYONE has is societal morality, which is basically the explicit and implicit negotiations of all members of society about what is and isn't in our sustainable best interests as a society. No religion can be terribly out of step with societal morality without society regarding it is ... immoral. And suffering the consequences thereof.
What fundamentalists are freaking out about is really just that they are losing the moral argument.
The dating site was essentially a private membership club.
No it is a for-profit business offering services to the public.
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Originally Posted by wallflash
Never mind that there are gay dating sites out there that no doubt cater exclusively to gays, this one site didn't have a setup for gay dating , so it had to be attacked and dealt with.
It has not been "attacked". It is simply been required to follow the law.
There are gay bars too, but heterosexuals can and do go to them. They aren't kept out. They are in fact generally welcome. It just isn't a place most of us straights want to be. We're not into it.
I don't know how the law views "gays only" or "sadist only", etc. sites but I suspect that you could sue one of them for excluding your heterosexual self and see what happens.
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Originally Posted by wallflash
I don't say the courts will rule against the churches , but I do now expect that an attempt will be made to try this, possibly using their tax exempt status as a weapon of compliance .
As I said, the real thing they should prepare for is society abandoning them as willing candidates for proselytization.
The abuse of tax exempt status is a separate issue. I don't deny that some unbelievers think it should be removed, but not because of opposition to gays. It is because most of what churches do isn't actual charity (no-strings-attached social good), it is because churches abuse tax exempt status in various ways including taking up political causes, and so forth. And if churches were stripped of tax exempt status they would still be free to believe their faith and practice it. They just wouldn't be subsidized by a society that increasingly doesn't agree with their faith and practice.
So it would be an empty threat, I think, to say you're going to take a church's tax exempt status if they aren't nice to gays. There are too many OTHER reasons to take it anyway. That is a couple generations away though I think, and by then I think churches who insist on demonizing gays will already be out of business simply because no one will want to belong to them.
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Originally Posted by wallflash
Let's just not pretend this is about justice for gays . It's about getting even.
I don't have to pretend its not about getting even because it's not. You sound like a fundamentalist with a persecution narrative to support. And that narrative is hypocritical given that it has been fundamentalists "getting even" with gays up to now. I suspect that gays just want to get on with their lives, by and large. I don't think they will stoop to the level of fundamentalists and retaliate. That is something fundamentalists may fear, because at some level they're ashamed of themselves and know they're in the wrong. But it is going to prove to be a baseless fear.
Except that the dating site in question is a for-profit business and churches are a special privileged class of non profit organization.
In my heart of hearts, as an unbeliever and one of those lib-ruhls, would I want to strip churches of those protections if I could? No. I would not. If for no other reason than that it's not necessary. Some churches used to argue in favor of slavery (some still argue in favor of white supremacy, against miscegenation, etc). Why is this now basically not happening or at least is greatly marginalized and driven underground? Because society moved in another direction and that deprives such churches of members who support such notions. In fact most people are disgusted by such notions.
So it is a self limiting problem. The real threat to the identity of churches who regard homosexuality as sin is not jack-booted thugs dragging them off to some dungeon or forcing doctrine on them at gunpoint. It is a dearth of people interested in joining and supporting such churches. In fact it doesn't really even require revulsion on the part of the public to effect change in church doctrine. It simply requires lack of interest. The same kind of church used to preach against going to the movies or watching TV or wearing skirts shorter than ankle-length. It's been probably three generations or more since people were willing to wear dated fashions and forego popular entertainments, and lo and behold, the teaching against these things is so muted as to amount to nothing.
I think the difficulty fundamentalists have in understanding this dynamic has to do with them buying into the notion that church doctrine is immutable. It is not. It changes constantly. It is just usually a generation or three behind the rest of society. Society will drag the fundamentalists into the 21st century kicking and screaming over the next couple of decades, by simply refusing to reward them for being retrograde.
This also speaks to what I have always said about morality. The only kind of morality that ANYONE has is societal morality, which is basically the explicit and implicit negotiations of all members of society about what is and isn't in our sustainable best interests as a society. No religion can be terribly out of step with societal morality without society regarding it is ... immoral. And suffering the consequences thereof.
What fundamentalists are freaking out about is really just that they are losing the moral argument.
I have no argument with anything in this post , but it doesn't address the fact that a couple of gay men and their lawyers couldn't stand the fact even though there are multiple gay dating sites that willingly sought their business , there was one that didn't cater to them , and so it had to be attacked .
Are these same lawyers concerned that the gay dating sites don't provide the option for hetero men to find women on them ? Of course not . Is anyone concerned about this double standard ? Of course not . The point is not justice and equality, but getting even with the Christians .
I'm still interested in whether we force businesses to cater to Muslims , or African Americans, or Jewish people . Can a young African American woman go into a hair salon that primarily serves older white ladies and demand they do cornrows on her hair ? And if they say they don't do that there, can she sue because they won't cater to her choice of hairstyle ?
The Christians have earned this anger from gays, but again, let's be honest and acknowledge this type of behavior for what it is and not pretend to ourselves it's about equality for gays . No gays were harmed because this site didn't have the gay option . There are plenty of gay dating sites that DONT bother with worrying about equality for heterosexuals on their site , with no concern for equality in this from the gay community . It was about retribution, not mistreatment and discrimination.
We will likely continue to disagree about this , so there is not really much point in spending the whole evening going back and forth over it . In the end though you must find a way to believe that the gay guys that passed over and ignored every single gay dating site that catered SPECIFICALLY to their orientation , and chose to go to a Christian dating site and cause a ruckus over the fact that a Christian dating site wouldnt cater to their desire to find a gay man to have a romantic relationship with did so from some sort of innocent intent while merely looking for the best place to meet other gay men, and were surprised to find , and honestly felt it necessary to sue over , the fact that after joining they discovered there was no method for them to indicate that they wanted to meet other gay men .
Please . That's nonsense and you know it .
Last edited by wallflash; 07-02-2016 at 10:11 PM..
Heaven forbid a Christian website want to keep their membership exclusive to Bible believing Christians. I suppose you think churches should allow gay members as well, right?
Yes, churches should allow gay members, just like they allow black, white, asian, left-handed, and blue-eyed members.
Being gay is not a sin Jeff. Let me say that again since it doesn't seem to be sinking in. BEING GAY IS NOT A SIN!
Aside from that, are you sinless Jeff? Please show me where Jesus said sinners are not allowed to be members of Church. Jesus mingled with tons of sinners. He never said, "Sorry, you're gay, you're not allowed in my Church."
You are placing enormous stumbling blocks before people Jeff, and it's very unbecoming of someone claiming to be Christian. You really need to read Matthew 7 and get off your pulpit.
You're just as much, if not worse, of a sinner than gay people. Stop with the holier-than-thou attitude.
Nope there isn't. Fighting against religious extremism and discrimination is not shoving it down your throat.
Yes, yes, yes . You are about the business of ending discrimination by ensuring that gay men get to search for romantic relationships on Christian based sites .
When will companies learn they CAN NOT discriminate against sexual orientation? Good to see that once more the courts understand the Constitution and laws.
Not allowing LGBT users to use the service isn't the best idea in regards to making money, but this is a private business. They should be able to do whatever they want.
This is complete BS. It's like forcing restaurants to serve blacks. While refusing service to somone because of their race is definitely morally wrong, it should in no way be against the law.
Yes, yes, yes . You are about the business of ending discrimination by ensuring that gay men get to search for romantic relationships on Christian based sites .
Lots of gay men are Christian, so I don't see an issue with that.
Not allowing LGBT users to use the service isn't the best idea in regards to making money, but this is a private business. They should be able to do whatever they want.
And through countless lawsuits and court rulings, we've already established that private businesses catering to the public cannot do whatever they want.
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This is complete BS. It's like forcing restaurants to serve blacks. While refusing service to somone because of their race is definitely morally wrong, it should in no way be against the law.
Well, it is and has been for quite some time. Get over it.
Lots of gay men are Christian, so I don't see an issue with that.
Of course you don't . And of course it is impossible for gay men to use sites that actually offer the service of helping gay men find partners . Nope, that won't do. We have to FORCE those who don't offer this option to alter their business model to cater to gays .They can't use the multitude that do, they must make the one or two that don't comply with their views and wishes .
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