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There is an aspect of this thread that reminds me of debating the history of the Holocaust with a dedicated Holocaust-Denier ... these delusional people will cite articles (with pictures, yet!) and all kinds of theories and charts and cite fellow travelers to prove their point. They are full of crap.
Now I used to be a member of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archeology and Anthropology, which by the way, is a mere 6 blocks from my house. We call it the Penn Museum for short. It's one of the very best anthropology museums in the western hemisphere. Needless to say, no scientist, researcher, professor, or fellow of the museum would agree with this "biblical" story of a great flood. Oh well ... since they are not in accordance with some people's religious beliefs I suppose those people would not consider them "real" scientists.
Religious belief is something that a person feels in their heart. They do not have to try to "prove" or "legitimize" their belief system to me. It's true for them ... I understand that. To me it's false. My intelligence, my reason, my education, my discernment, my logic ... all tell me that such fables are nonsensical and preposterous.
There is an aspect of this thread that reminds me of debating the history of the Holocaust with a dedicated Holocaust-Denier ... these delusional people will cite articles (with pictures, yet!) and all kinds of theories and charts and cite fellow travelers to prove their point. They are full of crap.
Now I used to be a member of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archeology and Anthropology, which by the way, is a mere 6 blocks from my house. We call it the Penn Museum for short. It's one of the very best anthropology museums in the western hemisphere. Needless to say, no scientist, researcher, professor, or fellow of the museum would agree with this "biblical" story of a great flood. Oh well ... since they are not in accordance with some people's religious beliefs I suppose those people would not consider them "real" scientists.
Appealing to the human or "if everyone believes it, it must be so" is a fallacy. In other words, if every "legitimate" scientist does not believe in Noah's flood, they must be correct, is a fallacy.
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Religious belief is something that a person feels in their heart. They do not have to try to "prove" or "legitimize" their belief system to me. It's true for them ... I understand that. To me it's false. My intelligence, my reason, my education, my discernment, my logic ... all tell me that such fables are nonsensical and preposterous.
Sorry but we can't go by your "intelligence, reason, education, discernment, logic" to tell us the historic biblical account of Noah's flood is a fable, nonsensical and preposterous. That is no proof at all.
But that isn't really what the Bible says. In fact the Bible says "God will have all mankind to be saved for . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
Are you incapable of recognizing when someone is joking? My god, you guys are just failing in all categories here.
As for the whole Christianity bit, I say thank you, but no thank you. I look around at the Christians, not just today but historically, and how they have treated Native Americans and I say no thank you.
In fact, just looking at a picture of Trump's "Tremendous" religious advisors makes me wonder what kind of god does the white man worship. Maybe Jeffy can tell them all to swallow their vomit. thanks jeffy.
I don't tell others what to believe, but Christians have put down Native American beliefs since day one. My tribe had their annual Sun Dance forbidden under threat of having soldiers come and annihilate our People.
Most Natives could not even go to the sweat lodge. They learned to hide their ceremonies. And the Native American Church was illegal until the early 1900s. Freedom of religion?
There are always a few men who are Christ like, and they don't push their agenda, but instead they follow the tenets of Christ's teachings without pointing fingers and saying, "You're going to hell, you and you, and oh you and you..."
The weird part is I can sit in my backyard away from Christ's followers and away from their hate and pray to the Great Spirit as my ancestors have done and I feel peace in my heart.
Sorry but we can't go by your "intelligence, reason, education, discernment, logic" to tell us the historic biblical account of Noah's flood is a fable, nonsensical and preposterous. That is no proof at all.
Sorry, but MY intelligence ... My reasoning ... My education ... My discernment ... My logic ... has caused me to reject the Noah story as fable - nonsensical and preposterous.
The biblical writings of this event are not history, but merely mythology.
If you believe it, good for you. I reject it. It's as simple as that. I do not seek to convert believers into non-believers. I don't have to cite an article to prove my position - if you want to understand my position go to the Smithsonian or the National Geographic Society or the American Museum of Natural History or any one of thousands of universities across the globe.
Are you incapable of recognizing when someone is joking? My god, you guys are just failing in all categories here.
Yes, I was incapable of recognizing your joke. Sorry, but if it isn't spelled out, I don't get it.
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As for the whole Christianity bit, I say thank you, but no thank you. I look around at the Christians, not just today but historically, and how they have treated Native Americans and I say no thank you.
That was the U.S. Government who mistreated the Native Americans. Christians were trying to help save them. Or are you joking again?
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In fact, just looking at a picture of Trump's "Tremendous" religious advisors makes me wonder what kind of god does the white man worship. Maybe Jeffy can tell them all to swallow their vomit. thanks jeffy.
Maybe he can? Who knows?
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I don't tell others what to believe, but Christians have put down Native American beliefs since day one. My tribe had their annual Sun Dance forbidden under threat of having soldiers come and annihilate our People.
My B.S. meter just broke. Christians were helping the indians. The Govt. was killing them. The Christians here in Michigan, I know this as part of the history of this area, is the Christians were feeding the indians when they would come to their farm looking for food.
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Most Natives could not even go to the sweat lodge. They learned to hide their ceremonies. And the Native American Church was illegal until the early 1900s. Freedom of religion?
That was not the fault of Christians but the Govt.
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There are always a few men who are Christ like, and they don't push their agenda, but instead they follow the tenets of Christ's teachings without pointing fingers and saying, "You're going to hell, you and you, and oh you and you..."
I don't believe it is right to point fingers either, and not point fingers at Christians.
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The weird part is I can sit in my backyard away from Christ's followers and away from their hate and pray to the Great Spirit as my ancestors have done and I feel peace in my heart.
I don't hate you. I love and care for you and everyone.
Sorry, but MY intelligence ... My reasoning ... My education ... My discernment ... My logic ... has caused me to reject the Noah story as fable - nonsensical and preposterous.
The biblical writings of this event are not history, but merely mythology.
If you believe it, good for you. I reject it. It's as simple as that. I do not seek to convert believers into non-believers. I don't have to cite an article to prove my position - if you want to understand my position go to the Smithsonian or the National Geographic Society or the American Museum of Natural History or any one of thousands of universities across the globe.
As if that proves anything. LOL. You don't understand the basis of a fallacious argument, do you?
As for the whole Christianity bit, I say thank you, but no thank you. I look around at the Christians, not just today but historically, and how they have treated Native Americans and I say no thank you.
In addition to the way the so-called Christians treated the Native Americans ... how about how they treated the Jews for nearly 2,000 years???? I mean, they even purport to worship a Jewish god! Yet there is a long bloody history of discrimination, persecution, oppression, massacres, the Inquisition, expulsion, degradation, the Crusades, humiliating decrees, Pogroms ... all directed against their Jewish neighbors.
So I see from the discussion is that current science can be totally dismissed as not able to disprove the flood because not 100% of everything that is known today. Knowledge and education in geology or physics is to be looked down on. On the other hand we must be open minded enough to accept that any idea that is put forth to support the flood, even if it sounds illogical , must be accepted as at least possible if not probably and becomes proof of the flood story.
Perhaps the attendance at the Ark Experience the very first day was sufficient to pay for the entire project and make a huge profit. We have no proof that this could not be the truth as we would only be using math and maybe numbers do not mean what they used to?
What I find most disturbing is the put down on education and knowledge. Its as if it is better to not know a subject and make proclamations about it then to know the subject. Myself I am not ashamed to have gone to university and obtaining a couple of degrees or of having read many many books to increase my knowledge of the natural world. I have even read books by creationists about the flood and evolution. It is not an embarrassment to admitting that learning is enjoyable. I have learnt much from others on this forum who have a different background and are much more knowledgeable than I on another subject such as genetics.
I am maybe naïve to be willing to accept the work of generations of scientists over the un supported thoughts of a non scientist on issues of science. I cannot see how a god would be pleased with those who support him by making claims on subjects they have little knowledge and call those with the knowledge liars or worse. What kind of god would want that kind of support, especially given the ninth (I think) commandment. From the Jewish tradition, reading and learning and being educated were traits that are praised and encouraged, but it seems like from some of the bible believing Christians that it is frown at and not desirable.
So I see from the discussion is that current science can be totally dismissed as not able to disprove the flood because not 100% of everything that is known today. Knowledge and education in geology or physics is to be looked down on. On the other hand we must be open minded enough to accept that any idea that is put forth to support the flood, even if it sounds illogical , must be accepted as at least possible if not probably and becomes proof of the flood story.
Perhaps the attendance at the Ark Experience the very first day was sufficient to pay for the entire project and make a huge profit. We have no proof that this could not be the truth as we would only be using math and maybe numbers do not mean what they used to?
What I find most disturbing is the put down on education and knowledge. Its as if it is better to not know a subject and make proclamations about it then to know the subject. Myself I am not ashamed to have gone to university and obtaining a couple of degrees or of having read many many books to increase my knowledge of the natural world. I have even read books by creationists about the flood and evolution. It is not an embarrassment to admitting that learning is enjoyable. I have learnt much from others on this forum who have a different background and are much more knowledgeable than I on another subject such as genetics.
I am maybe naïve to be willing to accept the work of generations of scientists over the un supported thoughts of a non scientist on issues of science. I cannot see how a god would be pleased with those who support him by making claims on subjects they have little knowledge and call those with the knowledge liars or worse. What kind of god would want that kind of support, especially given the ninth (I think) commandment. From the Jewish tradition, reading and learning and being educated were traits that are praised and encouraged, but it seems like from some of the bible believing Christians that it is frown at and not desirable.
There are Christian PhD'd scientists who disagree with your PhD'd scientists as to the flood. It is as simple as that.
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