Ken Ham's Opening Day at the Ark. #FAIL only 4000 show up. (ghosts, bishop)
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Now you're just being daft! What about all the books that were thrown out? What about all the additions. If the Bible 'message' has remained consistent, then which message? The Protestent Old Testament? The Slavonic Old Testament. The Eastern Orthodox Old Testament or the Catholic Old Testament? They contain books that they believe are ordained and preserved by God that are missing from the one you probably use. Does your particular 'consistent' Bible contain 1 Esdras, 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, Odes, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, and the Letter of Jeremiah?
If the Bible has been preserved by your god's providential oversight and care, why haven't the above been preserved? Do you have some special insight into your god that says the above are not holy writings or written by 'God's hand' or blessed by the church...which church?
That's like saying why isn't a Joel Osten or Joyce Meyer book included in a revised edition of the Bible? Just because there are Christian writings does not mean that are inspired from God. One of the main reasons why the books you mentioned are not in our Bible is that Jesus and his disciples NEVER recognized them as the Word of God. They frequently quoted the scriptures and never once made reference to these other books. Neither did Josephus. Also, if the teachings in these books are completely contradictory to the mass majority of the other books, that makes them suspect like teaching purgatory or praying for the dead. That goes against the very teachings from Christ.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
The books about Paddington Bear mention Paddington station. The books about Sherlock Holmes mention Baker street in London. I've been there. I've actually seen it. So what point are you making?
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So what? Are you really suggesting that ancient writers adopted the exact same literary style as modern day writers? Newflashes, book stores didn't exist back there. There wasn't a market to create works of fiction. Instead, the Bible was carefully preserved letter by painstakingly letter. The dead sea scrolls showed just how little has changed after thousands of years of producing manuscripts.
Yes, He did know. The problem was that they didn't know. He had to show them just how messed up they were.
That is a ridiculous answer (but an excellent one for your job) because he would know that no matter how long he pleaded, no matter how much he pleaded, how much he tried to show them...they were not going to listen and that he would have to drown them all, thus ending 100 years of pointless and fruitless pleading that he knew wouldn't work.
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See my answer above.
I did. It was pretty daft!
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It wasn't wasted time. He had to show the world how patient He is and longsuffering and show the world just how messed up they were.
Of course it was a waste of time because he knew it wasn't going to work...and not only that, what the hell is the point in showing the world how patient and 'long-suffering' you are when you know that you are going to kill them all? What an idiot is this god you worship...teach someone a lesson...and then kill them!!
What was the point of having to show to people how messed up their were if he was going to drown them and no one they knew would survive? Sorry from the outside looking in it makes no sense for God to plead for 100 years with people he was going to destroy and only his chosen 8 would be alive to record what happened. If Noah was building the boat and harvesting supplies he must of had little time witnessing God pleading, unless every one was in the same location and then why a global flood.
God teaches you and me things would could not otherwise learn even though you and I are going to die. So why waste time teaching you and me? Why teach the antediluvians the lesson they needed to learn even if they too were going to die? Because this life is just a prelude to the next. What we learn in this life carries over to the life after our resurrection.
Someone in this thread accused God of being a baby killer via the flood. But it was important that God plead with the mothers of those babies and fathers of those babies that they turn from their wicked ways and enter the safety of the ark. No one came. They all refused. So, in effect, the mothers and fathers are the baby killers.
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It is a sort one can only believe as true if you already believe that everything in the Bible is absolutely true and factual. I would guess that those visiting the Ark Encounter would either marvel of how it displays how the flood happened and how Noah was able to provide for all the animal's needs because they already believe the entire story or they will see it as lacking in substance because the either do not believe or they view the story as allegorical. For example you see it as a massive structure easily capable of holding all the food and animals and I do not see it as large enough to contain the feed let alone space for any animal.
That is going to be a liability for the park in attracting visitors in my opinion.
I see what you are saying and I believe you are correct as to your thoughts concerning the Ark Encounter. Yesterday I emailed one of my friends who used to be a Baptist minister but now believes God will save all mankind. He lives not too far from the ark. I asked him if he was going to visit it with his family. He said it was not likely because the people involved are so militaristic about their young earth ideas. He said his wife is involved in home schooling and go to meetings concerning home schooling. He said some of the people of the Ken Ham persuasion are really kind of nasty with people who don't believe like his wife who believes the earth is very old.
But personally, even with the odd ball ideas Ken Ham has on other things I think the Ark Encounter can be a positive experience. It may flop. If it does, it is no sweat off my back. The world will continue.
That is a ridiculous answer (but an excellent one for your job) because he would know that no matter how long he pleaded, no matter how much he pleaded, how much he tried to show them...they were not going to listen and that he would have to drown them all, thus ending 100 years of pointless and fruitless pleading that he knew wouldn't work.
I did. It was pretty daft!
Of course it was a waste of time because he knew it wasn't going to work...and not only that, what the hell is the point in showing the world how patient and 'long-suffering' you are when you know that you are going to kill them all? What an idiot is this god you worship...teach someone a lesson...and then kill them!!
Dear Rafius,
I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. Really, I do. Even if they are counter to mine, they are your thoughts and are unique to you. That is what makes your posts so special. If we all thought the same as me, well, we probably wouldn't need these discussion boards. Everyone has a place here and thinks uniquely. That being said, Yes, for 100 years He pleaded with humanity to enter the safety of the ark. Of course He knew they would not. They didn't realize just how deep seated their evil was. They needed to see that. And yes, they all died in the flood. But there is a coming life. What they learned in this life will carry over to the next. They will have a contrast between extreme evil and incredible immortality and incorruption and extreme joy.
The Bible says these things are foolish to the wise. You are wise. I am foolish.
God teaches you and me things would could not otherwise learn even though you and I are going to die. So why waste time teaching you and me? Why teach the antediluvians the lesson they needed to learn even if they too were going to die? Because this life is just a prelude to the next. What we learn in this life carries over to the life after our resurrection.
Someone in this thread accused God of being a baby killer via the flood. But it was important that God plead with the mothers of those babies and fathers of those babies that they turn from their wicked ways and enter the safety of the ark. No one came. They all refused. So, in effect, the mothers and fathers are the baby killers.
I see what you are saying and I believe you are correct as to your thoughts concerning the Ark Encounter. Yesterday I emailed one of my friends who used to be a Baptist minister but now believes God will save all mankind. He lives not too far from the ark. I asked him if he was going to visit it with his family. He said it was not likely because the people involved are so militaristic about their young earth ideas. He said his wife is involved in home schooling and go to meetings concerning home schooling. He said some of the people of the Ken Ham persuasion are really kind of nasty with people who don't believe like his wife who believes the earth is very old.
But personally, even with the odd ball ideas Ken Ham has on other things I think the Ark Encounter can be a positive experience. It may flop. If it does, it is no sweat off my back. The world will continue.
Things would have been far different if God himself pleaded with each and every person all at the same time instead of this warning coming from a drunk building a boat claiming a bearded guy in the sky is making death threats, no?
That's like saying why isn't a Joel Osten or Joyce Meyer book included in a revised edition of the Bible? Just because there are Christian writings does not mean that are inspired from God. One of the main reasons why the books you mentioned are not in our Bible is that Jesus and his disciples NEVER recognized them as the Word of God. They frequently quoted the scriptures and never once made reference to these other books.
Then in other words, the Bible is NOT consistent as you claimed is it. It has deletions and it has additions.
Further to that, you are now claiming that your Jesus, who is 'God' in a different form according to Christianity - didn't accept his own 'Word' and threw them out!!
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Neither did Josephus.
What the hell does he have to do with anything?
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Also, if the teachings in these books are completely contradictory to the mass majority of the other books,....
Yes, we know. That is why the Church threw them out. They didn't depict JtC as the Church wanted him depicted.
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that makes them suspect ....
No. It makes the CHURCH suspect!
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...like teaching purgatory or praying for the dead. That goes against the very teachings from Christ.
Doesn't Christianity pray for the dead then?
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So what? Are you really suggesting that ancient writers adopted the exact same literary style as modern day writers?
No. I'm suggesting, with verifiable evidence, that fiction writers use places and people that exist/existed to lend a flavour of authenticity to their works. That the Bible mentions Egypt or the Pharaohs is no more an indication that the Bible is true than A.C Doyle mentioning Baker Street is an indication that Sherlock Holmes was real.
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Newflashes, book stores didn't exist back there. There wasn't a market to create works of fiction.
Bigger newsflash! Oh yes there was. Stories were made up even then. Story-telling by way of entertainment existed even then. You're not seriously telling me that every, single story told around the camp-fire was true are you? You're not telling me that all the stories that abounded about the gods of different religions really are true are you? After all...there wasn't a market to create works of fiction was there so the stories about Zeus must have been true..right?
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Instead, the Bible was carefully preserved letter by painstakingly letter.
I've just proved you wrong on that.
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The dead sea scrolls showed just how little has changed after thousands of years of producing manuscripts.
The Dead Sea Scrolls only relate to the Old Testament and they contain, with the exception of Esther, all the books that your Christianity threw out. So here you are, using the DSS as 'evidence' that your Bible is true... and then telling me that the many books contained within the DSS were 'contradictory' and needed to be thrown out!!
Oy vez Jeff. Why do you never THINK before opening your mouth and ramming your foot in it?
btw Jeff. Your DSS were dated by Carbon 14 dating so I sincerely hope that we are not going to hear you complaining about the unreliability of C14 dating when that method proves your bible wrong...huh?
God teaches you and me things would could not otherwise learn even though you and I are going to die. So why waste time teaching you and me? Why teach the antediluvians the lesson they needed to learn even if they too were going to die? Because this life is just a prelude to the next. What we learn in this life carries over to the life after our resurrection.
Someone in this thread accused God of being a baby killer via the flood. But it was important that God plead with the mothers of those babies and fathers of those babies that they turn from their wicked ways and enter the safety of the ark. No one came. They all refused. So, in effect, the mothers and fathers are the baby killers.
I see what you are saying and I believe you are correct as to your thoughts concerning the Ark Encounter. Yesterday I emailed one of my friends who used to be a Baptist minister but now believes God will save all mankind. He lives not too far from the ark. I asked him if he was going to visit it with his family. He said it was not likely because the people involved are so militaristic about their young earth ideas. He said his wife is involved in home schooling and go to meetings concerning home schooling. He said some of the people of the Ken Ham persuasion are really kind of nasty with people who don't believe like his wife who believes the earth is very old.
But personally, even with the odd ball ideas Ken Ham has on other things I think the Ark Encounter can be a positive experience. It may flop. If it does, it is no sweat off my back. The world will continue.
And it is too bad that YEC are nasty to OEC folks.
Someone in this thread accused God of being a baby killer via the flood. But it was important that God plead with the mothers of those babies and fathers of those babies that they turn from their wicked ways and enter the safety of the ark. No one came. They all refused. So, in effect, the mothers and fathers are the baby killers.
Ok, Eusie.... This is just plain ole dumb, man. If I tell a mother, "Leave this place or I murder your kid!", and the woman doesn't leave, and I later kill her kid, it is not the mother's fault. The fact that you throw logic and common sense out the window when it comes to your god's actions should tell anyone reading it what a joke your religion really is.
The fact is, you have nothing but special pleading and "The Bible says so" in your arguments. It is sad that people like you can't see past this nonsense.
Ok, Eusie.... This is just plain ole dumb, man. If I tell a mother, "Leave this place or I murder your kid!", and the woman doesn't leave, and I later kill her kid, it is not the mother's fault. The fact that you throw logic and common sense out the window when it comes to your god's actions should tell anyone reading it what a joke your religion really is.
The fact is, you have nothing but special pleading and "The Bible says so" in your arguments. It is sad that people like you can't see past this nonsense.
Then in other words, the Bible is NOT consistent as you claimed is it. It has deletions and it has additions.
The Bible is consistent. The books you mentioned are not. Obviously, my points flew right over your head.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Further to that, you are now claiming that your Jesus, who is 'God' in a different form according to Christianity - didn't accept his own 'Word' and threw them out!!
You are putting the horse before the cart. The other books are not his own Word if He never accepted them. They were not inspired by God. Otherwise, Christ would have acknowledged them too. Christ would have taught about purgatory and such things.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Doesn't Christianity pray for the dead then?
Umm no. Why would we? A dead person is beyond salvation. The story of Lazarus and the rich man showed the futility of praying for the damned.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
No. I'm suggesting, with verifiable evidence, that fiction writers use places and people that exist/existed to lend a flavour of authenticity to their works. That the Bible mentions Egypt or the Pharaohs is no more an indication that the Bible is true than A.C Doyle mentioning Baker Street is an indication that Sherlock Holmes was real.
Well by heavens, we must declare all record history as FICTION then! How else would you tell the difference? The historians were just fiction writers apparently using real names and places in their tales.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Bigger newsflash! Oh yes there was. Stories were made up even then. Story-telling by way of entertainment existed even then. You're not seriously telling me that every, single story told around the camp-fire was true are you? You're not telling me that all the stories that abounded about the gods of different religions really are true are you? After all...there wasn't a market to create works of fiction was there so the stories about Zeus must have been true..right?
Your point is irrelevant unless you can provide that the literary style and techniques were identical to modern day writers. Did the camp fire stories make up genealogies and fake races too?
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Originally Posted by Rafius
I've just proved you wrong on that.
The Dead Sea Scrolls only relate to the Old Testament and they contain, with the exception of Esther, all the books that your Christianity threw out. So here you are, using the DSS as 'evidence' that your Bible is true... and then telling me that the many books contained within the DSS were 'contradictory' and needed to be thrown out!!
My point is that the DSS prove that the modern day Bible was carefully preserved. It wasn't seasoned with each new generation's ideology. If the Bible was purely a product of man, it would have looked extremely different from the DSS.
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Originally Posted by Rafius
Oy vez Jeff. Why do you never THINK before opening your mouth and ramming your foot in it?
More condescending crap from you. At least you are consistent in being rude.
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