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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The other mythologies talk about their fantasy gods. The Bible talks about real life people like Pharaoh and his court.
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I've said repeatedly I believe there is some actual history in the books of The Bible. And that some archaeological finds have supported some biblical writings concerning certain kings, cities, wars, and so on.
Personally, I don't then deduce from this that everything in the Bible must then be 100% accurate history, nor do I feel this is the least bit important to the worth of The Bible, but we've had this discussion before.
Just to re-state it though, it brings to my mind Homeric writings concerning Troy and the Trojan War. This was considered pure legend for centuries, until Troy was actually uncovered in an archaeological dig.
We now know that Troy existed and the Trojan War actually took place. But this does not mean that other parts of Homer's works (Odysseus and his men battling a cyclops or getting hypnotized by the siren songs of mermaids) are all historical fact.
I realize you consider The Bible the inerrant Word of God, and that's fine. Many people see it as some history placed within and alongside poetry, legend and myth, which convey a deeper philosophical or spiritual truth than mere fact.
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If the Bible is not history then ALL ancient writings must be works of fiction.
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This sort of black-and-white, all-or-nothing attitude is really indefensible nonsense. It is like Eusebius' talking about "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" when some people find certain parts of The Bible objectionable, or dislike stories of Yahweh destroying the world to punish humankind, etc., and they consider this illogical and harsh or whatever, so they then dismiss the entire Bible as having no value, no wisdom, nothing positive, which is, of course, untrue.
Making a statement like
"Of course every letter of The Bible is completely true and factual, and if it's not, then no other writings from any culture from the ancient world can have any truth to them" is ridiculous. It only serves to show you reject the idea of undergoing actual thought processes when thinking or talking about these things. That, where The Bible is concerned, you either fear or dismiss using rationality or critical thinking. Again, that is your prerogative, but I think it causes you to miss out on a lot that could be enlightening or informative for you. That's really not for me to say though. I'm not your judge. Hey, whatever gets you through the night.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Just baffles me how someone can claim to be a Christian yet be a passionate enemy of God's word.
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There are millions of Christians who feel many parts of The Bible are meant to be allegorical or symbolic and are more legend and myth than actual history.
Serious, honest, simple, direct question: do you consider these people, who think of themselves as Christians, as somehow being "enemies of God's word?"
In your estimation, are they not "real" Christians?
I'd really like to know your stance on this.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
One of the main reasons why the books you mentioned are not in our Bible is that Jesus and his disciples NEVER recognized them as the Word of God.
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First off, obviously nobody can actually know this. That's silly. For one thing, The Bible is relatively silent regarding the last couple of decades of Jesus' life. For another, how can anyone possibly claim to know which ancient Hebraic texts Jesus or his disciples used to a 100% degree of certainty? Is it your assertion that
everything Jesus and his disciples ever said, or did, or studied, or preached about is included in the Gospels?
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They frequently quoted the scriptures and never once made reference to these other books. Neither did Josephus.
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Again, that really proves nothing and is meaningless, unless you claim that every single bit of Jesus' life, all he said and did, and learned, and taught, is in The Bible. Maybe you do believe this?
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Also, if the teachings in these books are completely contradictory to the mass majority of the other books, that makes them suspect like teaching purgatory or praying for the dead. That goes against the very teachings from Christ.
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Well, some of the apocryphal books you speak of are not from the OT period, but from after the death of Jesus. Many of these were in use by plenty of early Christian sects, until the canonical books of The Bible were set by a Council of Bishops in the late 4th century (not at the earlier Council of Nicea, as is commonly claimed.) Since I brought this up, is was actually over three centuries after Jesus' death that it was decided, and became part of church canonical teachings, that Jesus was divine and of the same substance as The Father, which constituted an "official" rejection of Arianism. Before this time, there were Christian sects which did not view Jesus as divine. After the end of the 4th century, many of these sects were literally wiped out. Small towns where such "heresies" were held to had every man, woman and child killed.
But I digress.
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So what? Are you really suggesting that ancient writers adopted the exact same literary style as modern day writers? Newflashes, book stores didn't exist back there. There wasn't a market to create works of fiction. Instead, the Bible was carefully preserved letter by painstakingly letter. The dead sea scrolls showed just how little has changed after thousands of years of producing manuscripts.
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There is definitely some truth to what you say. SOME truth. I do feel it is remarkable some of the archaeological and "stumbled upon" findings (the latter in the case of the Dead Sea Scrolls) deviate, in many cases, very little from the biblical books we know today. At the same time, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain many writings that are NOT now part of the accepted biblical canon, though many are from the same period from which we have the earliest known canonical writings. Some of this holds true for the Nag Hammadi texts as well.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
God teaches you and me things would could not otherwise learn even though you and I are going to die. So why waste time teaching you and me? Why teach the antediluvians the lesson they needed to learn even if they too were going to die? Because this life is just a prelude to the next. What we learn in this life carries over to the life after our resurrection.
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This sort of thing, while perhaps a valid belief for you, and I'm not trying to call you out for it, but this is where, to me, all logic and rationality breaks down and causes me to reject the idea of an all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent deity.
Other than perhaps wanting little puppets to amuse him, my question becomes "why?"
The idea of free will is not compatible with an omniscient, omnipotent AND benevolent god.
I ask again: did Yahweh not know that Adam and Eve would succumb to temptation in the Garden? Did he not see this coming? Did he not create the serpent? Was he not aware that Adam and Eve would sin, eat the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, covering all subsequent humans in original sin which would involve eternal punishment for those who did not turn to him?
Did God not know that humanity would once again turn wicked and corrupt, compelling him to destroy nearly everybody and everything in a global flood?
If he did not know these things, he's far from omniscient, yet The Bible says God knows us even before we are born--every hair on each of our heads, every beat of our hearts through our lifetimes. Surely he MUST then know in advance who will come to dwell with him and who will be consigned to flames of Hell forever.
If this is the case, I contend that life, under such circumstances, has no more "meaning" than life without the belief in gods.
I have to go back to Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
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