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As I mentioned before, the establishment clause is there to prevent religion from being specifically targeted or alternatively, given special privileges. There's no constitutional issue with making religious groups follow the exact same rules as similar secular organizations.
That's why they're not allowed to perform human sacrifices, after all - your interpretations would prevent the government from enforcing laws against murder if someone says they really believe their god said it was OK.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Taxation is not the default. It is imposed by law. I agree, KC, BUT this is about political speech. Religious freedom of expression and freedom of political speech are specifically enumerated. Using a backdoor law about taxation to impede those freedoms is a violation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano
No one's denying churches their right to political speech; they just have to make a choice-- free speech or exemption from taxes. Life is full of choices. No one has a right to be exempt from paying taxes unless Congress creates the exemption. No backdoor law at all. But maybe President Trump will make Congress amend 26 USC 501(c)(3).
I predict such an amendment would be widely unpopular, and not just among us atheists, pagans, satanists, and other fellow travelers.
No they do not. Taxation is about MONEY and its use. As long as no MONEY is being spent advertising or promoting a political candidate or cause, there should be no repercussions. Impeding personal political speech is verboten even within a 501C3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
It is sorta satisfying to see which side Mystic will come down on when the barriers go up. I sorta think that Troutdude and wardenDresden will be loading and ramming for us.
I repeat, I agree with KC and I am no defender of religions, Arq. I am a defender of our freedoms which get eroded by these backdoor implementations targeting money in virtually every area of our lives.
No they do not. Taxation is about MONEY and its use. As long as no MONEY is being spent advertising or promoting a political candidate or cause, there should be no repercussions. Impeding personal political speech is verboten even within a 501C3.
Oh, and BTW, anyone who thinks that taxation is only about money is living in a dream world. Taxation is used to shape public policy, always has, always will. Maybe not in some mystic world, but here, that's totally the case.
No they do not. Taxation is about MONEY and its use. As long as no MONEY is being spent advertising or promoting a political candidate or cause, there should be no repercussions. Impeding personal political speech is verboten even within a 501C3.
I repeat, I agree with KC and I am no defender of religions, Arq. I am a defender of our freedoms which get eroded by these backdoor implementations targeting money in virtually every area of our lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano
Maybe you should read the statute. Or you can pretend that the law doesn't say what it says, a pretty common thing around here.
Oh, and BTW, anyone who thinks that taxation is only about money is living in a dream world. Taxation is used to shape public policy, always has, always will. Maybe not in some mystic world, but here, that's totally the case.
I know what the statute says. I am expressing my understanding of what a Constitutional challenge SHOULD find while striking that clause from the statute.
Oh, and BTW, anyone who thinks that taxation is only about money is living in a dream world. Taxation is used to shape public policy, always has, always will. Maybe not in some mystic world, but here, that's totally the case.
I wonder if they will petition the IRS to audit the Girl Scouts, or United Way, Salvation Army, ASPCA who all take POLITICAL STANCES... some religious, some not.
I know what the statute says. I am expressing my understanding of what a Constitutional challenge SHOULD find while striking that clause from the statute.
Good thing then, since I'm sure all the constitutional lawyers who achieved decisions like Hobby Lobby never had your insights, and will welcome your guidance.
Meanwhile, I'll have to wait to get to my resources to be able to pass on to you the previous, unsuccessful attempts to get 501(c)(3) declared unconstitutional. You'll want to read those cases, so you'll know what hasn't worked.
Taxation is not the default. It is imposed by law.
I agree, KC, BUT this is about political speech. Religious freedom of expression and freedom of political speech are specifically enumerated. Using a backdoor law about taxation to impede those freedoms is a violation.
The only violation would be singling out religious tax exempt groups for special treatment on way or the other. That's not happening, but giving them a blank check to violate tax law would be.
I wonder if they will petition the IRS to audit the Girl Scouts, or United Way, Salvation Army, ASPCA who all take POLITICAL STANCES... some religious, some not.
Can you give specific examples of how you feel these groups are violating the law?
Good thing then, since I'm sure all the constitutional lawyers who achieved decisions like Hobby Lobby never had your insights, and will welcome your guidance.
Meanwhile, I'll have to wait to get to my resources to be able to pass on to you the previous, unsuccessful attempts to get 501(c)(3) declared unconstitutional. You'll want to read those cases, so you'll know what hasn't worked.
I know what the statute says. I am expressing my understanding of what a Constitutional challenge SHOULD find while striking that clause from the statute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrano
Good thing then, since I'm sure all the constitutional lawyers who achieved decisions like Hobby Lobby never had your insights, and will welcome your guidance.
Meanwhile, I'll have to wait to get to my resources to be able to pass on to you the previous, unsuccessful attempts to get 501(c)(3) declared unconstitutional. You'll want to read those cases, so you'll know what hasn't worked.
Stop pretending it is the entire statute that is being questioned. It is the stifling of INDIVIDUAL speech within the organization that is unconstitutional. The exemption is for the MONEY and it is the use of the money that is proscribed, NOT the personal speech of the members of the organization. That is the backdoor and bogus stifling of free speech.
Stop pretending it is the entire statute that is being questioned. It is the stifling of INDIVIDUAL speech within the organization that is unconstitutional. The exemption is for the MONEY and it is the use of the money that is proscribed, NOT the personal speech of the members of the organization. That is the backdoor and bogus stifling of free speech.
Please support your claim that individuals are being stifled. The prohibition quite clearly applies to 501(c)(3) organizations. Did you view the link provided in the OP? The Facebook post in question begins:
Quote:
Bill Gibbons, Superintendent of Cornerstone Christian Academy, praises David Madore for his sponsorship of many academy students.
Do you see how Bill Gibbons is not speaking for Bill Gibbons, but for the Cornerstone Christian Academy?
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It is sorta satisfying to see which side Mystic will come down on when the barriers go up. 
I sorta think that Troutdude and wardenDresden will be loading and ramming for us.
