An Intellectual's Christian Narrative: A Non-Magical Alternative (atheist, bible, quote)

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

if someone told me they had a square circle at home I'd be intrigued. I'd be fascinated. I'd want to see it. I'd want to hear more about it. I'd wonder about the puzzle. I'd say how does that work, tell me more, what's it like. I'd say what do you like about it, what do you use it for, where did you get, how long have you had it.

I like puzzles, always have.


and it fascinates me to hear, see, understand how people view the world

My reactions would be identical to yours, except, perhaps, for some strong suspicion that "somehow something is wrong with this picture."

E.g.
Joe and I are not meaning the same things by our the words 'square' and 'circle'.
Joe is just teasing me or lying.
Joe is deeply confused about something.

I would love to actually see what Joe is referring to. If he literally showed me some object, then I'm sure we could clear things up very quickly. (E.g., he has a cube with rounded corners, or some such thing.) One highly likely possibility is that Joe would never be able to show me an actual object. There would always be some reason why he can't show me right now, or why I can't see it, even though he is holding it up in front of my eyes, etc. In the latter case, I would probably think Joe genuinely believes he is holding a square circle, but I would not interpret this as: Joe is actually holding an objectively real object that I fail to see. I would, instead, interpret this as: Joe has a subjective experience of some mental image that he confusedly thinks is an objectively-existing square circle. (If he knew that it was just a mental image, I don't think he'd bother trying to show it to me by holding it up in his hands. If he did, then that would be more evidence, for me, that there is some deep confusion in his mind.)

Perhaps one difference between you and I might be this: I would not go to his house expecting to be shocked or amazed by the actual existence of what I am forced to admit is a genuinely square circle. I would literally be willing to bet my life that Joe cannot possibly show me a genuinely square circle. (Although, of course, if - per impossible - he did actually show me a genuine square circle, then I would indeed be shocked and amazed.) I'd be very interested to see what he does show me, and I'd be interested to know how his mind is working, such that he seriously believes that this circle is square. Maybe he will show me a string shaped in a circle, and then he will drag out the edges to form a square. That's not what I could call a genuine "square circle" but the demonstration would resolve a great deal of the puzzle (probably with a few psychological questions remaining).

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by Matadora

Sam Harris: What is Consciousness?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vao9HN_FqOE

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

i have no interest in watching a 22-minute video by Sam Harris. (or any video by Sam Harris for that matter.)

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

...the conversation I am engaging in is from a place of seeking to understand each other's beliefs and views, and explain my own.

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

...
I like puzzles, always have.

and it has always fascinated me to hear, see, understand how people view the world.

You've said on numerous occasions how interested you are in understanding how other people think. In this light, I would encourage you to consider watching the Sam Harris video that Matadora posted earlier. Sam and I are very similar in our worldviews, but sometimes he is able to say thing better than I can. Also, just FYI, you probably don't realize that Sam - although he has a reputation for being a hard-core anti-religious zealot - is actually very open to a surprising number of the types of spiritual views that you have be advocating in these threads (at least moreso that you probably expect).

I'd be very interested in knowing how you react to his speech to a convention of atheists (posted in the video above), if you are willing to take a look at it.

[nateswift]

Good luck. Tzaphkiel posts videos without even attempting to tell why it would be reasonable to watch it when asked, but that's different, right?

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by auralmack

You sound like dead meat.

Interesting...I have never heard dead meat make one sound. I guess this is just your imaginary fantasy at play here.

Originally Posted by auralmack

Your group of religious folks is a fantasy in your mind, like some religious net you carry around to snare people.

My group of religious folks? A snare I carry around?

Sounds like you don't like the fact that religious folks can't handle objective truths and instead choose to prop themselves up with blind faith "ultimate truths".

Originally Posted by auralmack

And some get tangled in your one way world with your one was signs with your badge of authority with your ultimate truth of blaming all the innocents caught in your snare for your own wasted life.

Sorry mack...nothing here is sensible. Try again.

Yes it's a waste of a lifetime thinking you are following the "ultimate truth" when in reality you don't know which way is up. No thanks.

[Matadora]

Originally Posted by auralmack

And then I met myself. Come, follow me...

Why would anyone want to follow you? What do you have to offer others?

So far I have not read anything that would prompt me to want to follow someone like you.

[Gaylenwoof]

Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof

My reactions would be identical to yours, except, perhaps, for some strong suspicion that "somehow something is wrong with this picture."

Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel

there is a difference between "seeking to understand"

and "jumping to conclusions" "making value judgments" "snap judgments"

So do you think that, because I would feel that there is "somehow something wrong with this picture" I therefore would fail to "seek to understand"? Notice that as "strong suspicion" is not a refusal to investigate further. If I had said my reaction would be "Joe is obviously an idiot", then I might agree that my snap judgement could close my mind to possibilities. But as it stands, I was simply explaining an initial intuition. I think it is probably safe to say that virtually everyone has initial intuitions when confronted by various situations, whether we consciously acknowledge them, or not. Initial estimates of a situation are not evidence of faulty thinking; they are simply mechanisms of brain function. When I reach for a familiar door knob, I expect it to turn, or not, depending on whether I typically find it unlocked or locked. Expectations are built in to brain function. Without them we couldn't navigate through the world. But, of course, to understand this you need to realize the distinction between simple expectation, on the one hand, and dogmatic prejudice on the other. You can have a default expectation that X will probably somehow turn out to be equal to Y, without dogmatically asserting, upfront, that X has to equal Y. My expectation that "something is wrong with this picture" merely means that "there is something more that I need to learn in order to understand this situation." Expectations of the sort I'm discussing are implicit invitations to puzzle-solving; they are just the opposite of the dogmatic close-mindedness.

You like solving puzzles, so try this: Think of a Rubik's cube. If you see that the side are randomly colored, it is perfectly reasonable and healthy to expect that the puzzle can be solved. If I am an expert who routinely solves Rubik's cubes in 30 seconds, I would have a very reasonable expectation that I can solve this puzzle in less than a minute. If I struggle for two hours and still can't solve it, I would suspect that there is "something wrong here." If I have been hypnotized recently, I might suspect that maybe the hypnotist gave me a post-hypnotic suggestion that "The next time you are presented with a Rubik's cube, you will find that you are unable to solve it." Or, more likely, the cube is a gag cube that actually cannot be solved. I might even wonder if I am being secretly filmed for a Candid Camera episode.

When Joe says he has a square circle in his house, he sets up a puzzle for me. And my reaction "Hey! Somethings wrong here" is simply my acknowledgement that a puzzle has been presented. Notice I immediately image a host of possible explanations. That, too, is perfectly healthy and reasonable.

Now some of my hypotheses involve what might seem, at first glance, to be value judgements about Joe. He might be lying or insane. If I immediately assumed that he was a liar or insane, then that would indeed be "jumping to conclusions" and making an ill-advised value judgment. But that is not what I did. I simply listed these as possible explanations, and they happen to be perfectly reasonable possibilities so I would well-advised to consider them as options. Indeed, refusing to consider those option just because they imply something negative about someone would be simply foolish. If an option is a logical possibility, then the logical thing to do is consider it as a possibility.

If you are seriously suggesting that you would not even consider the possibilities that Joe is lying, or confused, or insane, or is using words in a weird way, or whatever, then I am, well... almost speechless. Is there really nothing about the claim "I have a square circle in my house" that presents you with a puzzle? And when presented with a puzzle, don't you brainstorm possibilities?

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof

...
If you are seriously suggesting that you would not even consider the possibilities that Joe is lying, or confused, or insane, or is using words in a weird way, or whatever, then I am, well... almost speechless. Is there really nothing about the claim "I have a square circle in my house" that presents you with a puzzle? And when presented with a puzzle, don't you brainstorm possibilities?

yes it presents me with a puzzle. yes i brainstorm possibilities.
and yes my ideas might include "using words in a different way"

however never in a million years would these be in my brainstorming
he is lying
or confused
or insane
for something as benign as someone telling me they "have a square circle at their house"

my "brainstorming" for possibilities is along the lines of:
it's a riddle, brainteaser, conundrum, puzzle. trying to figure it out, like the 20 questions game.

co·nun·drum
a confusing and difficult problem or question.
a question asked for amusement, typically one with a pun in its answer; a riddle

synonyms: problem, difficult question, difficulty, quandary, dilemma

that you "automatically" include insane, confused, lying is, well...... quite startling to me. I find it bizarre. colorful. unexpected. unusual. revealing.

i am glad you offered that example, that scenario. it turned out to be a fascinating exercise. I like those types of "if someone said this, what would you think?" in this example it would never occur to me to focus on "something wrong" with the person saying it. all my brainstorming is on the intrigue of the puzzle presented, the square circle.

[Tzaphkiel]

and i have to smile too because yes in my list of "brainstorming" ideas for the puzzle, was the reference to squaring the circle which is a mystical reference "man’s instinctive quest to harmonize our physical and spiritual natures," "Since Antiquity, the square the physical body; the circle, the soul. an eternal soul manifesting in a temporary body." Davinci's art , the man in the circle. the whole squaring the circle has intrigued and fascinated me for decades.

truth be told my first reaction to your scenario "he tells you he has a square circle at his house" was "it's a riddle" and my second was "squaring the circle" mystical reference. you being Gaylen and all, and the topics we are after all covering in this wonderful delightful discussion.

then I read the rest of your post and it didn't look like you were going that direction. so i gotta ask,
was that deliberate on your part in choosing that specific example? and were you familiar at all with "squaring the circle"?

“The circle is a symbol of spirit, of heaven, of the unmanifest, the immeasurable and the infinite, while the square is the symbol of the material, the Earth, the measurable and the finite,” …the symbolic essence of the problem was the reconciliation of seemingly opposing principles, and the resolution of dualities – “a sacred, cosmological act.”

thank you again for the exercise. very cool. lovin it!

[Tzaphkiel]

Hanni is the Davinci guy. Hanni over here please you're wanted in aisle 32, the Davinci sketch of the guy in the circle square what can you tell us about it? What I wouldn't give to be able to see art the way Hanni does, through his eyes, especially Davinci.

So Gaylen, Davinci much?

[Tzaphkiel]

Originally Posted by Gaylenwoof

... Sam and I are very similar in our worldviews, but sometimes he is able to say thing better than I can.....

He doesn't hold a candle to you Gaylen.
I'd rather read your posts.