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You are defending theories that are nothing more than creative attempts to explain the inexplicable using correlations observed by trial and error over centuries because they work. That in no way justifies the elaborate creative explanations for why they work. The imprimatur of centuries of belief in these elaborate explanations does not make them true. That is not how we determine what is actually going on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
and again my observation is this sounds like being very deeply lost in the maze of irrationality.
"for centuries this works"
but that "does not make it true"
"effective practices that brought you to pivotal life-changing event"
but "they are hocus pocus and bunkum"
Your practice of ignoring the entire context of quotes continues. I accept that the practices work because I have personal knowledge of their effectiveness, that does NOT mean that the theories about WHY and HOW they work are true. They do not KNOW why or how they work, but through centuries of trial and error, they have identified patterns that are effective. They have creatively tried to explain what is going on but it is all conjecture and speculation without a shred of proof that what they say is happening is actually what is happening.
yes. that is what I'm saying.
they knew more about some things, than we do now.
the word "some" is very important. but be very clear, we know more than they did. But we are basically the same, physiology speaking, to our ancestors.
it depends what a person claims is "justice" and "injustice."
some demand recreational drugs be legalized.
others see that as harmful and dangerous.
i don't want to go off topic in this thread but those who see themselves "fighting for justice against injustice" can have just as many blind spots and personal agendas as the other groups you name. perhaps you could explore what you mean by "anti-injustice" in another thread. people would probably have a lot to say on that. maybe in philosophy? or non-romantic relationships? or psychology? or religion and spirituality even.
yeah, but at some point you have to call them out on heckling. They just sit back and deny everything. that's not science. its not logic. Its not reasonable.
literal bible and deny everything gets to pass responsibility off to something else. they have it easy, no thinking required.
yes. that is what I'm saying.
they knew more about some things, than we do now.
I would agree. The average ancient certainly knew more about the practical necessities of living without technology than the average modern American. And I suspect that they knew about, say, certain healing properties of certain plants, etc. - things that modern science has not yet stumbled upon. (Not to mention that some species may have gone extinct - e.g., with the loss of rain forests, etc.). And since they didn't have technology to tempt them into ecologically bad behavior, one could argue that, in a sense, they were wiser about living in balance with nature - more expert in various "sustainable" practices out of sheer necessity.
But I would have to say that, in terms of what we know about "how the world works" on a more technical level, there is no comparison. On average, ancient brains probably processed about as much information minute-by-minute as ours, but the question is what all that processing was about. A modern fanatic baseball fan probably knows as much about baseball statistics as a chemist knows about chemistry. Both are processing vast amounts of information, but the knowledge is of a very different type. An astrologer and an astronomer probably process as much info on a daily basis, but I'd say that the astronomer's knowledge is more insightful into the actual workings of the world than the astrologer's. I'm sure that ancient witch doctors knew some tricks of the healing arts that modern doctors could usefully learn, but in terms of sheer facts about how bodies actually work, the witch doctor doesn't even come close. Ironically, there are probably times - certain individual cases - where the witch doctor's approach might constitute a better practice than the modern doctor's efforts (very often modern medicine just doesn't know as much as it thinks it knows) but, I wouldn't trust a witch doctor to do brain surgery or a heart transplant.
Personally, I wish today's doctors were better versed in alternative healing practices. From a standpoint of the practical art of healing, the combination of modern scientific medicine and ancient/alternative/intuitive knowledge would be vastly more powerful than either approach, purely by itself.
I would agree. The average ancient certainly knew more about the practical necessities of living without technology than the average modern American. And I suspect that they knew about, say, certain healing properties of certain plants, etc. - things that modern science has not yet stumbled upon. (Not to mention that some species may have gone extinct - e.g., with the loss of rain forests, etc.). And since they didn't have technology to tempt them into ecologically bad behavior, one could argue that, in a sense, they were wiser about living in balance with nature - more expert in various "sustainable" practices out of sheer necessity.
But I would have to say that, in terms of what we know about "how the world works" on a more technical level, there is no comparison. On average, ancient brains probably processed about as much information minute-by-minute as ours, but the question is what all that processing was about. A modern fanatic baseball fan probably knows as much about baseball statistics as a chemist knows about chemistry. Both are processing vast amounts of information, but the knowledge is of a very different type. An astrologer and an astronomer probably process as much info on a daily basis, but I'd say that the astronomer's knowledge is more insightful into the actual workings of the world than the astrologer's. I'm sure that ancient witch doctors knew some tricks of the healing arts that modern doctors could usefully learn, but in terms of sheer facts about how bodies actually work, the witch doctor doesn't even come close. Ironically, there are probably times - certain individual cases - where the witch doctor's approach might constitute a better practice than the modern doctor's efforts (very often modern medicine just doesn't know as much as it thinks it knows) but, I wouldn't trust a witch doctor to do brain surgery or a heart transplant.
Personally, I wish today's doctors were better versed in alternative healing practices. From a standpoint of the practical art of healing, the combination of modern scientific medicine and ancient/alternative/intuitive knowledge would be vastly more powerful than either approach, purely by itself.
Did you wink when you said this?
but, I bet there billing practices were far better and more in tune with the needs of the people around them.
I agree. Anyone who insists that scientific knowledge is the only valid sort of knowledge is missing the boat - actually, they are missing quite a few boats.
I think this is true as well, but I would add a word of caution: You might think you know and understand people based on what they say in these threads, but I very much doubt that you know as much as you think you know about them. Words on a screen simply fail to convey the humanity behind those words, especially in this short-exchange, topic-focused format. A major portion of human communication is conveyed through body language, tone of voice, and assorted nuances that can only be comprehended in person over considerable amounts of time. We simply don't get that here. We see printed words and react with printed words. I've met lots of people from the internet and I know, from first-hand experience, that words on a screen are a drop in the bucket compared to what you come to understand via real-life meeting. Just as "a picture is worth a thousand words," 20 minutes of real-life is worth thousands of pages of typing. And even 20 minutes of real life is not nearly enough to say, with any confidence, that you actually know someone.
Basically, everything in these threads has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Because Chinese medicine has known and utilized principles and laws of nature for centuries and centuries that people in this thread don't know. A person has to look no further than that.
There is nothing (except arrogance) that causes a person to think they "know more" simply by virtue of living in the year 2018. The universe has worked the same way for thousands of years and every generation has had smart minds who plumb the depths of mystery and share that wisdom with others.
There is considerably more reason to think we know more in 2018 than they did 2,000-4,000 years ago. I have studied their "explanations" and found them vacuous speculations based on untenable and certainly baseless processes and aspects of reality. They are creative and tied in a very disciplined way to trial and error associations and outcomes that DO work. But that does nothing to corroborate the so-called theories about why they work and what is actually going on.
Because Chinese medicine has known and utilized principles and laws of nature for centuries and centuries that people in this thread don't know. A person has to look no further than that.
....
Seriously??? When is the last time YOU applied a leech?
Seriously??? When is the last time YOU applied a leech?
Modern medicine uses leeches:
"The leech is invaluable in microsurgery when faced with the difficulties of reattaching minute veins. Ears have such tiny veins that, in the past, no one was able to successfully reattach them. Then, in 1985, a Harvard physician was having great difficulty in reattaching the ear of a five-year-old child; the tiny veins kept clotting. He decided to use leeches and the ear was saved. This success established leeches in the modern medical world. Since then, leeches have saved lives and limbs, reducing severe and dangerous venous engorgement post-surgery in fingers, toes, ear, and scalp reattachments; limb transplants; skin flap surgery; and breast reconstruction.
"Perhaps the best known advocate of medical leeches is Roy Sawyer, an American researcher. Several decades ago, he recognized the potential benefits of “leech therapy” and started one of the world’s first modern leech farms. Today, the company — Biopharm, based in Britain — provides tens of thousands of leeches every year to hospitals in dozens of countries. "
Not exactly what they were traditionally used for, but interesting. In traditional "Christian medicine" they were used to reduce blood in patients who were deemed to have too much and they probably cost quite a few lives.
"tradtional Christian medicine" was a horror show.
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