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You know, comments like this only just show me that it's just that same atheist game where they demand evidence ONLY and I repeat ONLY for the purpose of taking pleasure in shooting it down. The best proof of Christ comes from experiencing Him personally. And of course, you will write all that off by saying anecdotal evidence doesn't count.
Jesus chooses who to give that experience to, correct Jeff?
It's an indisputable fact that Jesus Christ of Nazareth existed, and King Herod tried to kill him as a baby, and that he grew into a powerful and very influential charismatic leader who was feared by the Roman government because he was teaching the masses that they were equal to the leaders, and for that he was crucified and died on the cross.
Well that is obviously false because it is being disputed in this very thread....
I couldn't have confidently issued such a challenge if I'd known there was anything historically supporting Jesus out there. Better men than myself like Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty have dealt with every single historical claim by Christians and shot them down like pigeons on a telephone wire.
I don't know what you think you're trying to pull, what game you're playing, or maybe you just have a screw loose and don't realize how you're contradicting yourself.
You claim that you're not asking for evidence for an historical figure called Jesus but only that you want evidence that proves that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet the evidence that you asked for in the OP is not evidence that would prove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, but only that there was an historical person named Jesus. You asked for evidence such as artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones.
''Show us something extra-Biblical that proves Jesus existed--ANYTHING, artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones, a relief, just anything-- and then let us examine it and if it is convincing I know that I will change my belief and say that he truly was the Son of God.''
None of those things would be evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, but only that he existed as an historical figure. In fact, if Jesus' bones were found in a grave, that would prove that he was NOT who he claimed to be, and so it is ludicrous to say that if Jesus' bones were found in a grave you would change your beliefs and say that he was the Son of God.
Again, you claim that you're not trying to disprove the existence of an historical person named Jesus, but you appeal to Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty who with the exeption of Dillahunty are mythicists who deny that the man Jesus even existed historically. Dillahunty is sort of in the middle and not sure.
Perhaps you're not sure whether you are trying to disprove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, or whether you are trying to disprove that an historical figure named Jesus existed. Maybe you don't know the difference. Maybe you can't make up your mind.
At any rate, Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and David Fitzgerald have not shot down the evidence for the existence of an historical figure named Jesus.
There wasn't any. "The Bible is all the proof I need" Oh and quotes from Noah's Fable. It was all along those lines. Nothing of substance. I couldn't have confidently issued such a challenge if I'd known there was anything historically supporting Jesus out there. Better men than myself like Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty have dealt with every single historical claim by Christians and shot them down like pigeons on a telephone wire.
I remember Old Euseeb's best shot for genesis was Jesus quoting it. But of course, that doesn't help here as you need to show that Jesus even said those things, and if he did, one can prove from the Gospels that there was a lot that was 'kept' from him, and so the fact that Genesis was a Fable meant that he didn't know better, or of course he was just quoting a story he knew wasn't true but the audience would understand it.
Three strikes, but that didn't stop him putting the same argument a few posts later.
I don't know what you think you're trying to pull, what game you're playing, or maybe you just have a screw loose and don't realize how you're contradicting yourself.
You claim that you're not asking for evidence for an historical figure called Jesus but only that you want evidence that proves that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet the evidence that you asked for in the OP is not evidence that would prove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, but only that there was an historical person named Jesus. You asked for evidence such as artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones.
''Show us something extra-Biblical that proves Jesus existed--ANYTHING, artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones, a relief, just anything-- and then let us examine it and if it is convincing I know that I will change my belief and say that he truly was the Son of God.''
None of those things would be evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, but only that he existed as an historical figure. In fact, if Jesus' bones were found in a grave, that would prove that he was NOT who he claimed to be, and so it is ludicrous to say that if Jesus' bones were found in a grave you would change your beliefs and say that he was the Son of God.
Again, you claim that you're not trying to disprove the existence of an historical person named Jesus, but you appeal to Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty who with the exeption of Dillahunty are mythicists who deny that the man Jesus even existed historically. Dillahunty is sort of in the middle and not sure.
Perhaps you're not sure whether you are trying to disprove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, or whether you are trying to disprove that an historical figure named Jesus existed. Maybe you don't know the difference. Maybe you can't make up your mind.
At any rate, Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and David Fitzgerald have not shot down the evidence for the existence of an historical figure named Jesus.
That's very good, but don't you see that by appealing to an historical Jesus rather than a Gospel Jesus, you are making our case and that of carrier, Dillahunty et al for us all?
I don't know what you think you're trying to pull, what game you're playing, or maybe you just have a screw loose and don't realize how you're contradicting yourself.
You claim that you're not asking for evidence for an historical figure called Jesus but only that you want evidence that proves that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet the evidence that you asked for in the OP is not evidence that would prove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, but only that there was an historical person named Jesus. You asked for evidence such as artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones.
''Show us something extra-Biblical that proves Jesus existed--ANYTHING, artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones, a relief, just anything-- and then let us examine it and if it is convincing I know that I will change my belief and say that he truly was the Son of God.''
None of those things would be evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, but only that he existed as an historical figure. In fact, if Jesus' bones were found in a grave, that would prove that he was NOT who he claimed to be, and so it is ludicrous to say that if Jesus' bones were found in a grave you would change your beliefs and say that he was the Son of God.
Again, you claim that you're not trying to disprove the existence of an historical person named Jesus, but you appeal to Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty who with the exeption of Dillahunty are mythicists who deny that the man Jesus even existed historically. Dillahunty is sort of in the middle and not sure.
Perhaps you're not sure whether you are trying to disprove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, or whether you are trying to disprove that an historical figure named Jesus existed. Maybe you don't know the difference. Maybe you can't make up your mind.
At any rate, Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and David Fitzgerald have not shot down the evidence for the existence of an historical figure named Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
That's very good, but don't you see that by appealing to an historical Jesus rather than a Gospel Jesus, you are making our case and that of carrier, Dillahunty et al for us all?
Not at all. In order for an historical person named Jesus to be who he claimed to be that historical person had to actually exist. And the mythicists (Carrier, Price, Fitzgerald, etc.) have not proven that an historical figure named Jesus didn't exist. The evidence is that an historical figure named Jesus did exist.
But I'm not attempting here to prove that Jesus is who he claimed to be. I'm simply pointing out that Thrillobyte doesn't know whether he's coming or going.
This has been brought up many times.
Imagine that archaeological proof is being sought for a man that lived many thousands of years before.
The archaeologists find, all over the world, hundreds of millions of copies of a book that is published for thousands of years, of which this person is one of the central subjects, and it contains a detailed account of his life from birth to death. They find, all over the world, hundreds of thousands of shrines and large buildings built in his honor. They also find absolute evidence that the most common philosophy in the world at the time was built around this person, and that philosophy dominated for thousands of years.
Would they say, "Sorry...we couldn't find any archaeological proof"?
Well, Jesus is:
1. The focal person of the #1 book in the history of the world.
2. Has had tens (hundreds?) of thousands of churches and shrines built in His honor.
3. Is the personal catalyst of the worlds #1 philosophy.
Other things and people...that have a relatively infinitesimal amount of proof of existence...are fully acknowledged and confirmed.
Still, some would actually ask, "Where is the proof?"...when you say "Jesus existed". Yet when presented with all the evidence of the writings, the structures built in His honor, the movement created by His influence...they say, "none of that counts".
If that doesn't count...what else would? What other archaeological proof would there be of any person that lived thousands of years ago...short of mummified remains?
I submit...there is more proof for Jesus than any ancient figure besides the Egyptian rulers the pyramids were built for.
I don't know what you think you're trying to pull, what game you're playing, or maybe you just have a screw loose and don't realize how you're contradicting yourself.
You claim that you're not asking for evidence for an historical figure called Jesus but only that you want evidence that proves that Jesus is the Son of God. Yet the evidence that you asked for in the OP is not evidence that would prove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, but only that there was an historical person named Jesus. You asked for evidence such as artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones.
''Show us something extra-Biblical that proves Jesus existed--ANYTHING, artifacts, a grave, a monument, an ossuary containing his bones, a relief, just anything-- and then let us examine it and if it is convincing I know that I will change my belief and say that he truly was the Son of God.''
None of those things would be evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, but only that he existed as an historical figure. In fact, if Jesus' bones were found in a grave, that would prove that he was NOT who he claimed to be, and so it is ludicrous to say that if Jesus' bones were found in a grave you would change your beliefs and say that he was the Son of God.
Again, you claim that you're not trying to disprove the existence of an historical person named Jesus, but you appeal to Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty who with the exeption of Dillahunty are mythicists who deny that the man Jesus even existed historically. Dillahunty is sort of in the middle and not sure.
Perhaps you're not sure whether you are trying to disprove that Jesus was who he claimed to be, or whether you are trying to disprove that an historical figure named Jesus existed. Maybe you don't know the difference. Maybe you can't make up your mind.
At any rate, Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and David Fitzgerald have not shot down the evidence for the existence of an historical figure named Jesus.
And also. "Doesn't know whether he's coming or going. Mike, I'm going to ask you to cease the insults. You wouldn't tolerate them in the Christian forum now that the rules on civility have changed. They're in effect over here too. They're psychological warfare to get others to think I don't know what I'm talking about and I won't tolerate that. If you expect to engage me them you're going to have to change that nonsense. Agreed? I'm going to be away from home for the morning and early afternoon. I'll answer your nonsense when I get back. And saying a person is spouting nonsense is not the same as calling them crazy, just in case you didn't know.
There wasn't any. "The Bible is all the proof I need" Oh and quotes from Noah's Fable. It was all along those lines. Nothing of substance. I couldn't have confidently issued such a challenge if I'd known there was anything historically supporting Jesus out there. Better men than myself like Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty have dealt with every single historical claim by Christians and shot them down like pigeons on a telephone wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Excuse me, Thrill. Apparently, you forgot this:
and this
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Ya famous last words thrill as your mind is already made up.
But here ya go anyways as it might actually be of help to others.
The problem thrill has is the saint Nickolas, santa clause scenario; he and many others have not learned how to separate what is historical from what is mythos.
They have the mentality that everything is to be taken literally, they have no understanding of mythos so take mythos as literal thus they are nothing but confused.
They simply will not acknowledge any scripture to be historical, yet my link on the nativity shows just how historical the nativity was and I give scientific evidence for their historicity. Yet even that will be disregarded because to many it is an all literal or nothing.
Saint Nickolas, santa clause scenario. They simply believe if they can prove santa clause is a myth then that is proof enough for them that so to then is saint Nickolas.
And also. "Doesn't know whether he's coming or going. Mike, I'm going to ask you to cease the insults. You wouldn't tolerate them in the Christian forum now that the rules on civility have changed. They're in effect over here too. They're psychological warfare to get others to think I don't know what I'm talking about and I won't tolerate that. If you expect to engage me them you're going to have to change that nonsense. Agreed? I'm going to be away from home for the morning and early afternoon. I'll answer your nonsense when I get back. And saying a person is spouting nonsense is not the same as calling them crazy, just in case you didn't know.
Considering that in post #75 you accused me of deliberating distorting the facts to suit my own end, your protesting about being insulted seems somewhat hypocritical.
And engage you? Actually, I'm dismissing you. Nor am I the one posting nonsense. That would be you. I'll put it like this. It's obvious from your ridiculous posts that you don't know straight up from straight down. Tolerate that!
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Oh and quotes from Noah's Fable. It was all along those lines. Nothing of substance. I couldn't have confidently issued such a challenge if I'd known there was anything historically supporting Jesus out there. Better men than myself like Richard Carrier, Robert Price, David Fitzgerald and Matt Dillahunty have dealt with every single historical claim by Christians and shot them down like pigeons on a telephone wire.
