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Okay, so per Skyler's advise I started a thread labeled the above. Why is this critical? Because establishing that the apostles were martyred sets the argument for whether they provide a reliable witness to the resurrection of Jesus.
Now the question was raised, "Can I prove they were NOT martyred?" It's a ridiculous premise because when history doesn't mention 11 of the 12 apostles it could go either way. Of course I can't prove they weren't martyred but historians don't go by what is NOT written, they go by what IS written.
So I'm asking straight out for members to provide extra-Biblical evidence, not tradition or legend, for the apostles' martyrdom. Why do I care about this? Because I see so many apologists raising the statement, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" and I say "How do they know that. So far I haven't been able to dig up a shred of evidence this is true."
And of course if you can locate descriptions of their fate in the Bible then fine. Please let us know which book and verse(s)
But I could be wrong. Maybe there IS evidence out there--mention of the apostles' martyrdoms in sources I am not familiar with. So if you know of any please state them here. I'd like to read them.
It's one more resource that will help me reconsider whether I made a mistake leaving the Christian faith.
Okay, so per Skyler's advise I started a thread labeled the above. Why is this critical? Because establishing that the apostles were martyred sets the argument for whether they provide a reliable witness to the resurrection of Jesus.
Now the question was raised, "Can I prove they were NOT martyred?" It's a ridiculous premise because when history doesn't mention 11 of the 12 apostles it could go either way. Of course I can't prove they weren't martyred but historians don't go by what is NOT written, they go by what IS written.
So I'm asking straight out for members to provide extra-Biblical evidence, not tradition or legend, for the apostles' martyrdom. Why do I care about this? Because I see so many apologists raising the statement, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" and I say "How do they know that. So far I haven't been able to dig up a shred of evidence this is true."
And of course if you can locate descriptions of their fate in the Bible then fine. Please let us know which book and verse(s)
But I could be wrong. Maybe there IS evidence out there--mention of the apostles' martyrdoms in sources I am not familiar with. So if you know of any please state them here. I'd like to read them.
It's one more resource that will help me reconsider whether I made a mistake leaving the Christian faith.
Okay, so per Skyler's advise I started a thread labeled the above. Why is this critical? Because establishing that the apostles were martyred sets the argument for whether they provide a reliable witness to the resurrection of Jesus.
Now the question was raised, "Can I prove they were NOT martyred?" It's a ridiculous premise because when history doesn't mention 11 of the 12 apostles it could go either way. Of course I can't prove they weren't martyred but historians don't go by what is NOT written, they go by what IS written.
So I'm asking straight out for members to provide extra-Biblical evidence, not tradition or legend, for the apostles' martyrdom. Why do I care about this? Because I see so many apologists raising the statement, "All the apostles were willing to die for their faith" and I say "How do they know that. So far I haven't been able to dig up a shred of evidence this is true."
And of course if you can locate descriptions of their fate in the Bible then fine. Please let us know which book and verse(s)
But I could be wrong. Maybe there IS evidence out there--mention of the apostles' martyrdoms in sources I am not familiar with. So if you know of any please state them here. I'd like to read them.
It's one more resource that will help me reconsider whether I made a mistake leaving the Christian faith.
Whether they were martyred is secondary. Whether they existed is primary. The question should first be...did they exist. I say no. If there was no Jesus The Christ, there were no apostles.
...but for the sake of the discussion, I will assume that they did exist. The question of whether or not they were 'martyred' will never,I suspect, be answered. the only thing that could be ascertained is that...they 'died'. I don't expect any verifiable evidence to show that they chose to die rather than live. They may not have been given the choice and therefore, would not have been martyrs but victims of execution.
"tradition says"
"church fathers believe"
"it is claimed"
"it is thought"
"some have said"
and other such ambiguous terms.
Citations should be from recognized historians/writers within 100 years whether Roman or Asian, as long as the source can be verified as having originated from the period which it claims to be coming from.
And certainly if you can locate the info in the Bible that's perfectly fine.
"tradition says"
"church fathers believe"
"it is claimed"
"it is thought"
"some have said"
and other such ambiguous terms.
Citations should be from recognized historians/writers within 100 years whether Roman or Asian, as long as the source can be verified as having originated from the period which it claims to be coming from.
Why are those not reliable sources? It would be good to not make assumptions. You do that all the time with the 66 books of the Bible. Now you get to define what is reliable on other sources, as well?
Keep moving those goalposts and before long you'll win the argument simply because you get to define the playing field. But true academia doesn't work that way.
Whether they were martyred is secondary. Whether they existed is primary. The question should first be...did they exist. I say no. If there was no Jesus The Christ, there were no apostles.
...but for the sake of the discussion, I will assume that they did exist. The question of whether or not they were 'martyred' will never,I suspect, be answered. the only thing that could be ascertained is that...they 'died'. I don't expect any verifiable evidence to show that they chose to die rather than live. They may not have been given the choice and therefore, would not have been martyrs but victims of execution.
I'm perfectly fine with that premise, Rafius. If we can prove they existed then we can better ascertain whether or not they were martyred.
This chestnut, "The apostles were martyred for their faith" is so pervasive that every apologist claims it as evidence when debating the resurrection of Christ i.e. WL Craig, Mike Licona, Dinesh D'Souza. Sean McDowell has written an entire book on the topic and I'm certain he uses reputable sources.
Snippet from the Craig-Ehrman debate on YouTube:
Quote:
This claim is made in all kinds of places. Even William Lane Craig brought it up in his debate with Bart Ehrman when he said the following:
Craig: The original disciples suddenly came to believe so strongly that God had raised Jesus from the dead that they were willing to die for the truth of that belief.
Ehrman: I hear that claim a lot, but having read every Christian source from the first five hundred years of Christianity, I’d like him to tell us what the piece of evidence is that the disciples died for their belief in the resurrection.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 08-09-2017 at 10:17 AM..
Your Bible has been proven over and over again to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud. That's why we don't consider it as 'reliable'.
By your own definition, the Bible is reliable, as it is verifiable. As are the accounts of the Church Fathers.
I look forward to someone that is more knowledgeable than me providing more info on the martyrs. But I honestly doubt that any of the skeptics will accept it.
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