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Great question. It about assigning the proper traits to the system we are in. A thing going "poof there it is" is not real. But being in a living system (like the biosphere) is real. Being part of the biosphere may give a person the sense that they are part of a much larger something 'alive'. so they are correct, they are surrounded by, and are part of, that life. That life is not a god.
That's what I mean by "god" and "no god" can't be a true dichotomy because we just don't know enough." By definition yeah, no god or god. But that definition is based off of what? Secondly, does the definition incorporate the science of how the universe works?
The universe works the way it works independent of our belief in god. We are just trying to out figure how the universe is working. I am an atheist so when I am learning about the universe and describing how it works based on observations, a statement of belief about "con't be god" never enters my head. I only lack belief.
Second part. what about holding a belief statement over a knowledge claim as more practical?
This addresses people that hold statements of beliefs as base axioms to form a line of logic.
Example of belief over lnkowedg.
1) "I believe god in the bible is literally true." vs "I believe it takes a long time for animal dying to being a fossil."
one is a base axiom using a statement of belief and one is using a knowledge claim as a base axiom (how rocks form),
2) "I believe religion is so dangerous that I am justified in doing anything to stop it." vs " I believe that all life on planet earth is connected to the life around it."
One is a base axiom using a statement of belief and one is a base axiom using a knowledge claim.
Pick on in describing "how the universe works". The second part of the second example is what I claim. I was told directly by mordant not to talk about the second part of the second example because theists can use it and it makes our job harder to convince people of atheism. that is what I mean by practical over knowledge.
so ask yourself.
are you primarily interested in describing how the universe works or are you primarily interested in selling atheism's statements of belief? or, are you so against religion you would hide, ignore (shun), dehumanize knowledge claims that challenge a statement of belief?
That wasn't the dichotomy I proposed. The dichotomy is either belief in a God(s) or no belief in a God(s). It is true that either a God(s) exists or he/she/it doesn't, but knowledge or belief is irrelevant.
I'm most interested in finding what is true and determining the best way to come to that knowledge. I don't believe that any of your statements, other than the second one in the first example would qualify as axioms, since neither are generally accepted as being true. For me to consider the second statement in the second example true, you would need to demonstrate that to me with empirical evidence, otherwise I can dismiss it as easily as you can assert it.
BTW, why do you believe that a thing "going poof" is not real?
That wasn't the dichotomy I proposed. The dichotomy is either belief in a God(s) or no belief in a God(s). It is true that either a God(s) exists or he/she/it doesn't, but knowledge or belief is irrelevant.
I'm most interested in finding what is true and determining the best way to come to that knowledge. I don't believe that any of your statements, other than the second one in the first example would qualify as axioms, since neither are generally accepted as being true. For me to consider the second statement in the second example true, you would need to demonstrate that to me with empirical evidence, otherwise I can dismiss it as easily as you can assert it.
BTW, why do you believe that a thing "going poof" is not real?
Yes, they are not axioms. Thats the problem. People use statement of beleif as an axiom when it shouldn't be.
Yeah, I came here as an Atheist just to fight Christians, but then the Lord appeared to me and said,'' Hannibal, why do you kick against the goads?''
All my Atheist friends in here were pretty cool about it even though I was the leading Atheist, I have found heaven, come, follow me.
I was also an atheist when I first joined on here and made some pretty searing posts about Christianity. I've posted my conversion story a few times on here, but the short and simple version is that I converted whilst studying the Westminster Confessions because of a historical research project I was working on. It explained biblical doctrines to me in a way that I've never heard before and which made a lot of sense to me.
My husband, whom I met on the Christian Forums, has a conversion story similar to yours: he was once an atheist and he says that it was like Paul on the road to Damascus when the Lord said, "Yep, you're coming with me" and my husband said, "No!!!!" kicking and screaming all the way. That is about how he describes it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Rem the story of Mahatma Gandhi...after reading the Bible in jail...goes to a Christian church
and is asked to leave because of how he was dressed?
Then said,
If this is Christianity, I want nothing to do with it...paraphrase.
Presbyterian, btw....
Please don't judge all Presbyterian churches by that one bad example (just like the example of that pastor)! I think Ghandi's dress would be an improvement upon my husband's appearance in church and they haven't kicked him out yet! He dresses kind of slovenly, many times wearing a bit crass (sometimes) t-shirts. We are very welcomed at my church!
Last edited by Basiliximab; 08-21-2017 at 05:12 PM..
I was also an atheist when I first joined on here and made some pretty searing posts about Christianity. I've posted my conversion story a few times on here, but the short and simple version is that I converted whilst studying the Westminster Confessions because of a historical research project I was working on. It explained biblical doctrines to me in a way that I've never heard before and which made a lot of sense to me.
My husband, whom I met on the Christian Forums, has a conversion story similar to yours: he was once an atheist and he says that it was like Paul on the road to Damascus when the Lord said, "Yep, you're coming with me" and my husband said, "No!!!!" kicking and screaming all the way. That is about how he describes it.
Please don't judge all Presbyterian churches by that one bad example (just like the example of that pastor)! I think Ghandi's dress would be an improvement upon my husband's appearance in church and they haven't kicked him out yet! He dresses kind of slovenly, many times wearing a bit crass (sometimes) t-shirts. We are very welcomed at my church!
If I remember your posts correctly, didn't you consider yourself a pantheist, even to the point of admitting that you believed there is a God but didn't know how to label him/her/it? I don't know that many would consider a pantheist as being an atheist, particularly considering the colloquial and linguistic meanings of the word atheist.
I do remember reading a version of your conversion story, but I'm interested in the specifics. What type of revelation did you have and what was its source, if you don't mind me asking?
I was also an atheist when I first joined on here and made some pretty searing posts about Christianity. I've posted my conversion story a few times on here, but the short and simple version is that I converted whilst studying the Westminster Confessions because of a historical research project I was working on. It explained biblical doctrines to me in a way that I've never heard before and which made a lot of sense to me.
My husband, whom I met on the Christian Forums, has a conversion story similar to yours: he was once an atheist and he says that it was like Paul on the road to Damascus when the Lord said, "Yep, you're coming with me" and my husband said, "No!!!!" kicking and screaming all the way. That is about how he describes it.
Sorry I lied{as a Joke}, I wasn't really an Atheist when I came here but there was a time that I didn't believe there was a God and I set out to prove there wasn't a God in 1998, but I only proved there was a God to myself.
I like to mess with my Atheist friends.
I was a Pentecostal for decades, had a prison ministry and I was preaching in many places, but then I converted to Judaism and I left everything of Pentecostal behind me. I still believe in Jesus, I just converted to the ways of God, and I no longer claim to have the Holy Spirit.
If I remember your posts correctly, didn't you consider yourself a pantheist, even to the point of admitting that you believed there is a God but didn't know how to label him/her/it? I don't know that many would consider a pantheist as being an atheist, particularly considering the colloquial and linguistic meanings of the word atheist.
That may have been right before I converted to Christianity; about a year or so before that I thought that there may be something but we just don't know what it is. After leaving off studying the Bible under a non-denominational preacher, I was firmly an atheist--or at least a pretty certain agnostic (seeing that it's a bit difficult to know beyond any shred of doubt that there is no god--maybe there might be something that we just haven't discovered yet, since there's so many things yet to discover! Atheists at least have to admit that we don't have a perfect and complete understanding of all things yet--so maybe god might be in one of those things yet to understand).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
I do remember reading a version of your conversion story, but I'm interested in the specifics. What type of revelation did you have and what was its source, if you don't mind me asking?
I don't have the time to write my full conversion story, but it's basically what I stated. I was interested in studying about D.H. Hill and found out he was a devout Presbyterian whose religion was central to his life. I figured what better way to find out about his character than to find out about this thing that was so central to him? That led me to the Westminster Confessions of Faith, to understand what exactly Presbyterians believed. In all my religious studies, there was never anything explained about the Bible to me the way it was explained by the Confessions. It made a lot of sense. At the time of my conversion, I was living as a transgender male. God gave me a change of heart and the ability to be comfortable in my own body which is something which I've never experienced. So that change in my life and the understanding of the doctrines is what God used to convert me.
If I remember your posts correctly, didn't you consider yourself a pantheist, even to the point of admitting that you believed there is a God but didn't know how to label him/her/it? I don't know that many would consider a pantheist as being an atheist, particularly considering the colloquial and linguistic meanings of the word atheist.
I do remember reading a version of your conversion story, but I'm interested in the specifics. What type of revelation did you have and what was its source, if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks for asking that. I was going to shrug my shoulders and say 'Ok, an atheist convinced, by evidence", but it does now sound very like the old story of a belief searching for a credible reason for believing.
I'll have a look at D.H Hill and the westminster confessions and see whether they'd persuade me, given that i wasn't already looking for something to be persuaded by.
.....
Good grief! 1646, and a lot of divines setting out a catechism of Christian theology. That wouldn't convince any atheist able to ask "What is the reason to believe any of that?"
I will only say that as an argument for persuading an informed atheist to convert, it comes 38th out of a class of 40.
I have usually called myself an apathetic agnostic rather than an atheist. I did not grow up in church, though my father (himself a lifelong atheist) introduced me to the KJV at a young age as a source of wisdom and beauty and I have always found it to be so.
I can say that, for whatever reason, this infinite...thing, or state, or being, is beginning to take form for me. I've begun to feel the flow of it. Not separate from me. Not separate from us.
This has all led me to cast my eyes beyond where I ever set them before. It's led me to think at least my "purpose" is to love and be joyful, and to spread love and joy. To keep darkness away. Even physicists now say our perception of objective reality is illusory and a product of our consciousness.
Your whole post was wonderful and very humble and honest...cut it down cuz hate making people scroll thru...
Thank you, Griffis.
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