Longsuffering and Wrathful (Buddhism, atheism, agnostic, gospel)
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Yeah, those crazy Christian theologians from 33 AD to 1960 AD had it all wrong! It was up to you and other American Baby Boomers to finally discover the True Meaning of Christianity that had eluded Christians (including Jesus himself, apparently) for 1900 years.
I will never be able to understand the incredible hubris of religious people, whether they are in the “liberal” or “fundamentalist” camp.
I’m no fan of fundamentalist Christianity, but at least twin.spin, jeffbase, Vizio, and BaptistFundie have 2000 years of tradition and history on their side. At least they aren’t making the claim that every generation of Christians everywhere in the world had it wrong until their generation (in America) came along and finally got it right.
If you knew anything about church history, you would know that there has been a constant thread of people who proclaimed the truth of Jesus' Way, most of whom were persecuted as heretics by establishment religion, a few of which were "sainted," like Francis of Assisi. Learn about the people who were outside the mainstream throughout the history of Christianity.
If you knew anything about church history, you would know that there has been a constant thread of people who proclaimed the truth of Jesus' Way, most of whom were persecuted as heretics by establishment religion, a few of which were "sainted," like Francis of Assisi. Learn about the people who were outside the mainstream throughout the history of Christianity.
What is Jesus’ Way, in your view?
If one reads the gospels (or at least the gospels that were put into the Bible), it’s pretty clear that Jesus sees himself as equal with God, judging the world at the end of time and dishing out punishments of fire and brimstone. Where do you think those awful “fundamentalists” get their material? The Canonical Gospels do not portray Jesus as a nice Jewish hippie who taught peace, love, and justice for the poor. The Jesus portrayed in the Canonical Gospels isn’t much better than the God portrayed in the Old Testament.
The number of people who believe in a thing has no bearing on whether or not that belief is true. I'm sure you're familiar with the Appeal to Popularity fallacy, right?
...On a personal level, I guess I just find it ... sad, I suppose ... that someone like you, who I do think is headed in the right direction, still feels the need to chain themselves to an ancient and immoral Bronze Age/Iron Age deity...
Anyhow, it's still wonderful for you that you've found some semblence of joy in this dark and nasty world.
I look at it the way that different Christian denominations look at each other: They might believe some strange stuff, but at least we can agree on the important things of God. Well, I just take it a little further and overlook a lot of stuff.
To be honest, I think the vast majority of Christians really may not believe all the things that you and I have objection to. I think that our quarrel is more often with the teachers who push certain doctrines.
Honestly, I think the Bible is (sometimes) just more of a unifying concept that brings people together to worship the true God. There is often a plurality of opinion and interpretation in their Bible studies, that it would make you really wonder. But the fact that the Bible is bringing them all together in fellowship and community indicates that there is something about a unifying written book that I respect. It's an "excuse" for them to get together and share their worries and struggles with each other.
If one reads the gospels (or at least the gospels that were put into the Bible), it’s pretty clear that Jesus sees himself as equal with God, judging the world at the end of time and dishing out punishments of fire and brimstone. Where do you think those awful “fundamentalists” get their material? The Canonical Gospels do not portray Jesus as a nice Jewish hippie who taught peace, love, and justice for the poor. The Jesus portrayed in the Canonical Gospels isn’t much better than the God portrayed in the Old Testament.
In your jaundiced view. The question is always whether there is a consistent message that is widely discernable and the consistent perception even among unbeliever is one of peace and love as is demonstrated when nominal Christians show the opposite and are greeted with the sarcastic comment, "how very Christian of you." How many times do you hear that? Check out the threads `on here indicating that Jesus NEVER indicated anything like the current perception of Hell and eternal punishment.
Always remember that everything in the Bible is the perception of the writer and/or translator and such reports inconsistent with a reasonable and dynamically different message that revolutionized faith at the time is not likely to be accurate.
These two qualities, (1) longsuffering, and (2) wrath, are the two biggest lies ever told about God. Even the scriptures describing God in this way are lies.
These are qualities found in powerful men. But never God. God was called both "King" and "Father" by religious people throughout history. But that is because they have always projected powerful men onto their image of God. Isn't that interesting in some way?
The truth is, having a belief in these qualities, as if they were a part of God, is evidence that the person has issues of their own which they have not dealt with. Perhaps parental issues as well. Maybe they don't act this way, but it still comes out in road rage, or in other hidden ways.
1. Powerful men (such as white European descendants) believe this because it is inside of them.
2. Women believe it because they see it inside of their men whom they respect.
3. Poor men believe it because they see it in powerful men whom they respect.
But I am here to say that it is a lie. I have tried to overcome these things inside myself with psychological methods. Anger management. Group therapy. Prayer. Grief. Etc. Whatever works. The result? I no longer believe in a God who is wrathful, and I've never experienced such joy as I do now. My God is now a God of love. Not judgement.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
Why should anyone seriously consider thoughts on God By an atheist?
Even with Jesus, you are deciding for yourself which parts of the Bible are "corrupted" and which are not.
It's still a form of that buffet dinner, plucking out the juiciest bits of meat while leaving the fat, choosing the yummy pizza and avoiding the nasty lima beans.
No, I am deciding which parts are compatible and consistent with theGod who IS love revealed and DEMONSTRATED by Jesus. It is NOT picking and choosing what I like. It is picking and choosing what makes sense given what we know about Jesus from His unambiguous life and actions, NOT what the ignorant primitive men of that time decided to attribute to Him. Rather than pretending to reconcile the contradictory and inconsistent attributions on faith because "God's ways are not our ways," eliminating the attributions that contradict how Jesus actually lived and died is rational and NOT cherry-picking what I like.
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As I've said before, Jesus really isn't much better than the OT God Yahweh. While sure, he didn't run around indiscriminately killing people like Yahweh, he did invent the concept of Hell and eternal torment if you don't join the cult -- as well as saying some pretty despicable things like having to hate your family in order to be his disciple.
No, Jesus did no such thing. How on earth can you reconcile God IS love and the detailed descriptions of what that means with the Godfather nonsense of "love me or else Hell and eternal torment"??? Picture some bitter ascetic old monk who hates and withdrew from his family and life self-righteously translating that verse about hating your family. Is it hard to imagine what would motivate him to translate it that way?
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However, the bottom line is that the Bible is the ONLY source of information about the Christian God.
Any perception of God beyond that is essentially made-up. And, let's assume you had some sort of experience with God. Why does that God have to have anything at all to do with Christianity?
This is not true. The Bible is the source selected, compiled, edited, translated, transliterated, copied and interpreted by ancient primitive men with beliefs, biases, prejudices, superstitions, and political agendas in the various Councils. It is NOT the ONLY source. The spiritual fossil record is replete with similar spiritual templates at less sophisticated and less evolved levels of understanding. Five hundred years before the birth of Christ, Buddha predicted that a Maitreya would come who perfectly embodied Maitri. Jesus did that despite scourging and crucifixion. Loving your torturers and murderers has to be the epitome of loving all life with indifference to the pains and sorrows of life (Maitri).
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Isn't it enough to know that a TRULY loving God exists -- instead of having to do theological yoga in order to make the Christian God conform to the God you personally experienced?
Yes, it is enough but it is unlikely to lead others who ostensibly follow the man who embodied that God perfectly away from their corrupt understanding of Him.
Why should anyone seriously consider thoughts on God By an atheist?
Because we make more sense.
Because we go on evidence rather than faith
Because saying: "Why listen to what atheists say?" is so obviously a 'fingers -in -the -ears' apologetic that it does your case more harm than it does ours.
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