Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Septuagint was only the first five books of the Tanakh, called the Torah...This is what was translated into Greek by those 72 Sages...Not the entire Tanakh...
The Septuagint contains all of the books of the Hebrew Bible. While the Torah was the first of the Hebrew Scriptures to be translated into Greek, the entire Hebrew Bible was eventually translated into Greek so that the Hellenistic Jews who could no longer read Hebrew could read the Hebrew Bible in Greek.
Septuagint - Influence on Christianity
The Septuagint was also a source of the Old Testament for early Christians during the first few centuries AD. Many early Christians spoke and read Greek, thus they relied on the Septuagint translation for most of their understanding of the Old Testament. The New Testament writers also relied heavily on the Septuagint, as a majority of Old Testament quotes cited in the New Testament are quoted directly from the Septuagint (others are quoted from the Hebrew texts). Greek church fathers are also known to have quoted from the Septuagint. Even today, the Eastern Orthodox Church relies on the Septuagint for its Old Testament teachings. Some modern Bible translations also use the Septuagint along side Hebrew manuscripts as their source text.
Septuagint - What Does It Contain?
The Septuagint contains the standard 39 books of the Old Testament canon, as well as certain apocryphal books. The term "Apocrypha" was coined by the fifth-century biblical scholar, Jerome, and generally refers to the set of ancient Jewish writings written during the period between the last book in the Jewish scriptures, Malachi, and the arrival of Jesus Christ. The apocryphal books include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), the Wisdom of Solomon, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, additions to the Book of Esther, additions to the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh.
I assume you're not going to actually answer my question from post #11 which was, ''While you're asking about comparisons and contrasts between the 'Christian Old Testament' and the Tanakh which is simply the Masorectic Text which is itself a standardization of different Hebrew texts and which was copied and edited by the Masoretes between the 7th and 10th centuries AD., how do you feel about the differences between the Tanakh and other ancient Hebrew texts of the Hebrew Bible?''
Sure, but that has nothing to do with whether there was any discussion of which books were to go into the New Testament canon. There simply was no such discussion at Nicaea.
Point taken. But I was responding to your post " The issue of which NT books were heretical (none of the 27 NT books are) was never a topic of discussion at the Council of Nicaea."
As I pointed out, the issue of heresy can't be dissassociated from the coucil of Nikea. It's a bit like the US civil war and slavery. Valid points can be made to correct popular musuncerstandings, but the issue is bound up with it.
At the council weight was swing behind a particular view of christianty and against another. I agree that this is directly related to the selection of books for the authorised 50 Bibles to replace all the others that were extant, but it goes without saying that books that didn't agree with the approved Christianity (Arianism didn't fo one) were not going to be selected whether or not they had been in any of the previously extant Biblical collections.
I did watch a talk of those early Bible and it struck me that there wasn't too much difference in the selection of OT and NT books, - just the order and a few minor works in one collection and not in the other.
I have to thank you again btw for pointing out what I'd overlooked - Qumran and the Samaritan Torah rather support the Septuagint. Of course the virgin birth quote based on the ambiguity of 'Parthenos' still suggests that Matthew was using the Septuagint rather than a Hebrew or Aramaic text that agreed with it.
The Mashiach is anyone anointed...Period...David was anointed and therefore, Mashiach, the Kohanim were anointed and therefore, Mashiach...In other words, there is nothing special about the word Mashiach...It does not mean savior...
Yes It isn't well known that anyone anointed (king of High priest) was a messiah, and of course some messiah -claimants were regarded as messiashs whether they succeeded in their claim and were anointed or didn't succeed. The Maccabees and bar Kochba, for example were equally 'messianic' but the Maccabees succeeded in establishing a dynasty of anointed kings and High Priests and Bar Kochba didn't, whether or not he actually had an anointing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965
Just to point out, there is no Hebrew OT...Just a Tanakh...However, your post is great...Thanks...
Yes, the Old Testament is the term applied by Christianity to the Jewish part of the Bible. Just so the reader will get what scriptures I'm talking about.
Point taken. But I was responding to your post " The issue of which NT books were heretical (none of the 27 NT books are) was never a topic of discussion at the Council of Nicaea."
As I pointed out, the issue of heresy can't be dissassociated from the coucil of Nikea. It's a bit like the US civil war and slavery. Valid points can be made to correct popular musuncerstandings, but the issue is bound up with it.
Oh, okay. Certainly, the major reason why the Council of Nicaea was called was to attempt to settle the dispute between Arianism and Trinitarianism.
Quote:
At the council weight was swing behind a particular view of christianty and against another. I agree that this is directly related to the selection of books for the authorised 50 Bibles to replace all the others that were extant, but it goes without saying that books that didn't agree with the approved Christianity (Arianism didn't fo one) were not going to be selected whether or not they had been in any of the previously extant Biblical collections.
I did watch a talk of those early Bible and it struck me that there wasn't too much difference in the selection of OT and NT books, - just the order and a few minor works in one collection and not in the other.
I have to thank you again btw for pointing out what I'd overlooked - Qumran and the Samaritan Torah rather support the Septuagint. Of course the virgin birth quote based on the ambiguity of 'Parthenos' still suggests that Matthew was using the Septuagint rather than a Hebrew or Aramaic text that agreed with it.
The issue of which NT books were heretical (none of the 27 NT books are) was never a topic of discussion at the Council of Nicaea. We have records of the twenty canons (as in rules) which were a matter of discussion at Nicaea. Not one of them addresses the issue of which books belong in the NT. You can read all twenty canons at the following site. Nicaea - Canons of the 325 Council
Here are the first three canons;
Canon 1
If any one in sickness has been subjected by physicians to a surgical operation, or if he has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy; but, if any one in sound health has castrated himself, it behoves that such an one, if [already] enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who wilfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men the Canon admits to the clergy.
Forasmuch as, either from necessity, or through the urgency of individuals, many things have been done contrary to the Ecclesiastical canon, so that men just converted from heathenism to the faith, and who have been instructed but a little while, are straightway brought to the spiritual laver, and as soon as they have been baptized, are advanced to the episcopate or the presbyterate, it has seemed right to us that for the time to come no such thing shall be done. For to the catechumen himself there is need of time and of a longer trial after baptism. For the apostolical saying is clear, “Not a novice; lest, being lifted up with pride, he fall into condemnation and the snare of the devil.” But if, as time goes on, any sensual sin should be found out about the person, and he should be convicted by two or three witnesses, let him cease from the clerical office. And whoso shall transgress these [enactments] will imperil his own clerical position, as a person who presumes to disobey the great Synod.
The great Synod has stringently forbidden any bishop, presbyter, deacon, or any one of the clergy whatever, to have a subintroducta dwelling with him, except only a mother, or sister, or aunt, or such persons only as are beyond all suspicion.
Constantine did direct Eusebius to have 50 copies of the Bible made, but did not make any demands about which books were to go into the Bible. And Constantine's directive did not take place at the Council of Nicaea.
Ah, very good. That clears things up even more. I guess they were castrating themselves to try to be as celibate and perfect ("no sexual sin" "found out" by "looking at a woman") as Paul said would be better to assuredly enter into immortality.
Sure, but that has nothing to do with whether there was any discussion of which books were to go into the New Testament canon. There simply was no such discussion at Nicaea.
Nor did these (nor the deemed "heretical" ones) seem to think they really needed a New Testament canon. Oral church tradition and power seemed to be A-O.K. with them.
Knowledge about the other groups that isn't just meant (or accidentally created) as heavily-vailed internal propaganda meant to try to cast a better light on the internal policies and politics --and thus often a darker light on the "out-group" on purpose or accidentally.
You know: 1st-hand source knowledge about other religions rather than quick hearsay.
The idea of "respecting" others (if they are religious/monotheist, usually its "forget them" if they are not one of the supposedly favored kinds of "other") by restraining oneself from causing any ill-feelings in the other is thus a huge hurdle to a conversation and also works to prop-up feelings of indignation if the respect isn't granted back on one's pillars of salt and sand.
It's not that hearsay weakens a group fighting against another group though; because even lies can bring unity and strength to a group if done properly. Indeed, sometimes thoughtful restraint is a disadvantage to the group doing still doing the thinking while being attacked. Such well-meant "idea/belief" face-to-face-respect-keeping is, however, a disadvantage to universal unity because of it would lead to less open-discussion and much more thin-skin all around.
Furthermore, since restraint is so tiring to the human-mind, thinking one is respecting other religions so much will allow one to lose their patience much easier (thinking themselves as if though they had already provided way too much respect and restraint already by simply not being inquisitive and expressive of their own true feelings (whether indoctrinated or self-made) in day-to-day meet-ups and actions.
The Septuagint was only the first five books of the Tanakh, called the Torah...This is what was translated into Greek by those 72 Sages...Not the entire Tanakh...
Quote:
The Septuagint should not be confused with the seven or more other Greek versions of the Old Testament,[4] most of which did not survive except as fragments (some parts of these being known from Origen's Hexapla, a comparison of six translations in adjacent columns, now almost wholly lost). Of these, the most important are those by Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion.
Woah, you learn something new every day.
The dark ages COULD come back again.
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 03-12-2018 at 11:45 PM..
The Septuagint contains all of the books of the Hebrew Bible.
[...]
Quote:
As the work of translation progressed [over the many years], the canon of the Greek Hebrew Bible [Septuagint] expanded. The Torah (Pentateuch in Greek) always maintained its pre-eminence as the basis of the canon, but the collection of prophetic writings, based on the Jewish Nevi'im, had various hagiographical works incorporated into it.
In addition, some newer books were included in the Septuagint: those called anagignoskomena in Greek, known in English as Deuterocanonical ("second canon") because they are not included in the Jewish canon. Among these are the Maccabees and the Wisdom of Ben Sira.
Also, the Septuagint version of some Biblical books, like Daniel and Esther, are longer than those in the Masoretic Text.
It is not known when the Ketuvim ("writings"), the final part of the three part Canon, was established, although some sort of selective processes must have been employed because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents such as Enoch or Jubilees or other writings that are not part of the Jewish canon, and which are now classified as Pseudepigrapha.
However, the Psalms of Solomon, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees, the Epistle of Jeremiah, the Book of Odes, the Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151 are included in some copies of the Septuagint, [better source needed] some of which are accepted as canonical by Eastern Orthodox and some other churches. (The differences can be seen here.)
Well, looks like there was a lot of very slow, political, and beaurocratical "God breathing" going on there too for what the "inspired" Hebrew Bible (and OT) should even be.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
