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Never mind someone offerrng say services when i just want me teeth done.
And the problem with a lager in a gay bar was what exactly?
Not exactly my venue either, but I've had that experience more than a few times and/or been in public places where it was obvious gays were also present. I'm heterosexual, but no big deal for me either way, as long as I'm free to do my thing while they're doing theirs, say dancing for example, or having a lager.
Thing is though, people obviously are inclined to be where there are people like them. Applies to issues of race too. I don't see much difference finding myself in a club that is all black patrons (I'm white), but people tend to segregate in these ways for reasons that are not always so okay.
Again, all good as far as I'm concerned as long as no individual or group is making it difficult for other individuals to live their life the way they want to as well. Pretty simple really...
my point is if he starts saying "this group needs to be not allowed to meet in public and organize because it is pushing an agenda" then it applies to other groups as well. he mentioned gay people so that's what was used in the example.
The difference is that gays are pushing an agenda to be allowed the same rights and freedoms as other groups. Much like blacks did when their civil rights were not being recognized. If these distinctions can't be made, then my logic can't be understood. Sadly, with all too many, this tends to be the case...
i actually agree with Trans on this.
it can be an intrusion, and it is a violation of boundaries.
if people want prayers they can ask for them.
that's why there are chaplains in hospitals. and chaplains offer their services, and never impose them. it is always up to the patient or family to decline, and that is honored and respected.
I'm not sure you are in agreement with Trans as much as you seem to think...
There are many different ways that individuals and groups can impose on others when they think they are innocently not doing so, but for the most part if the actions of an individual or group allow others the same respect and right to live as they wish as well, in a peaceful manner, then fine. Unfortunately, there are far too many ways in which people blur these lines, and cross over them, at the expense of others, sometimes without even realizing it.
then stick to people intruding on others and stay out of the science of how the universe works.
You want it both ways. You get to tell them they are wrong and you get to deny science that doesn't fit your beliefs.
If you would stay with "not intruding on others" I would have no problem with your denominations points of view and blind faith statements. Whats funny is that when people that don't agree with you do what you do its "intruding" but when you do it, "its saving others."
Hmm, sounds familiar again.
Curious about your comment. Help me understand, please...
"The science of how the universe works" has nothing really to do with how we treat one another, respect one another's right to "live and let live."
Science or the quest for answers, truth, can be imposing for some. It was imposing enough for the church once upon a time to put Galileo under house arrest for the rest of his life, for what they viewed as heresy, for example. I am sure we can continue consideration about how the universe works, quite peacefully in fact, while still allowing everyone to "live and let live."
Also of course, exchanging opinion should not be an intrusion as long as it is simply that, an exchange of opinion.
So "where's the beef?" I suspect I'm not understanding you...
Imposition. Not that any of this matters to anyone, but just to be as clear as possible before signing off again...
First, I appreciate the exchange of thought and opinion about all this, because it is both interesting and important as far as I'm concerned.
Second, that we impose on one another is hardly avoidable when it comes to living in a society like ours. A law that restricts the use of alcohol often imposes a problem for me when sometimes I'd just like a cold beer on a sunny day in a park, for example. Obviously, we are forced to come up with these laws in order to find a way to live in a safe orderly manner with one another. Also to deal with the "bad apples" that tend to ruin things for the rest of us. That said, I think we are still forced to judge the right or wrong of these impositions/laws, including how and why they exist. Complicated, but I think we have a secular government in part to better judge as a society what is right vs wrong in terms of how we must impose on one another, or not.
Good question, but let me be sure you are understanding my logic...
I am saying whatever gays do in the privacy of their own home or outside as you further describe is okay with me IF NOT IMPOSING ON OTHER PEOPLE.
More specifically, wherever gays may congregate, they generally do not impose their will and/or alternative life style on others like religions tend to do. Gays are okay with anyone who wants to get married to be married for example.
Force of numbers is also not a problem IF NOT IMPOSING ON OTHER PEOPLE. My logic is again based on a philosophy to "live and let live." As long as what an individual does in private or in a group is not imposing on others who think differently, are different, and as long as no one is being harmed, then my logic says okay.
Begin imposing one's beliefs on others, individually or as a group, let alone causing friction or violence as a result, not okay. Imposition a key point of focus here... Understood?
your logic and bias are flawed. big time.
gays in a meeting hall having a discussion, listening to a speaker, or practicing in the gay choir
is no different from
religious people in a meeting hall having a discussion, listening to a speaker, or practicing in the church choir
if I walk in a gay bar and someone grabs my ass, that is most definitely someone imposing their will on me.
your bias is showing "gay, yay good!" "religion boo bad"
if you don't like religion, then stay out of church, but don't try to say the religious can't gather.
if you don't like gays grabbing your ass, then stay out of gay bars, but don't say gays can't gather.
your logic is flawed and your blind spots are showing big time
And the problem with a lager in a gay bar was what exactly?
Not exactly my venue either, but I've had that experience more than a few times and/or been in public places where it was obvious gays were also present. I'm heterosexual, but no big deal for me either way, as long as I'm free to do my thing while they're doing theirs, say dancing for example, or having a lager.
Thing is though, people obviously are inclined to be where there are people like them. Applies to issues of race too. I don't see much difference finding myself in a club that is all black patrons (I'm white), but people tend to segregate in these ways for reasons that are not always so okay.
Again, all good as far as I'm concerned as long as no individual or group is making it difficult for other individuals to live their life the way they want to as well. Pretty simple really...
The problem wasn't with the gay bar but me not knowing it was one before I went in. Such things can lead to misunderstandings. And now I've forgotten the point.
Ah yes. Tzaph's post about intrusive gays. Well it is the same as with disguised venues. We wouldn't have a problem with people having religious meetings - even in public. so long as we know. I once attended a lecture on the dead sea scrolls, and was surprised to find that it ended up with Christian propaganda. I have also been to a Hari Krishna veggie eatery. But I knew it was before I went in. No problem, just as there wasn't when i explained to the young man who joined me that I didn't know it was a gay bar and only wanted a drink and had just entered the first pub I saw. In fact after the misunderstanding was cleared up we could have had a bit of chat, but we didn't.
I've worked with gays and knew one at the regular prom concerts. We got along fine. We knew they were gay and I wasn't and no problem, not with gay bars, gay conferences and gay marches for equal rights. just so you know that's what you got.
Now as to Tzaph's post to you, in many ways, being gay (or not) is superficially comparable to being religious. Or a fan of baseball or..yep - collecting stamps. Nobody wants to stop people being religious, doing baseball or collecting stamps. They ought not to want to prevent SS people being SS or Bi or whatever floats their boat.
Bot none of them - religious, sports freaks, gays or philatelists should influence society, politics or education as religion does or wants to - except in the case where there is social inequality in society, politics and law which needs rectification, which was the case with race rights, women's rights, Gay rights and atheist rights and I'd support the rights of religious minorities too, for example a Jew not being nagged or coerced into a different religion, and to that end, if she ..or he...was invited to a local community meeting, if it turned out to be a Christian propaganda meeting, that ought to have been made clear at the outset.
There have been a few examples of Christian recruiting -drives somewhat dressed as something else. 12 -step and A course for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Curious about your comment. Help me understand, please...
"The science of how the universe works" has nothing really to do with how we treat one another, respect one another's right to "live and let live."
Science or the quest for answers, truth, can be imposing for some. It was imposing enough for the church once upon a time to put Galileo under house arrest for the rest of his life, for what they viewed as heresy, for example. I am sure we can continue consideration about how the universe works, quite peacefully in fact, while still allowing everyone to "live and let live."
Also of course, exchanging opinion should not be an intrusion as long as it is simply that, an exchange of opinion.
So "where's the beef?" I suspect I'm not understanding you...
Bear in mind that he's caught Mystic's disease. Whatever the topic, he will simply play the broken record yet again (down with "New"atheists because they are 'liberal' (1). And Arach is a latent theist in search of a credible theism. He is trying to wangle a 'universe is alive' line which leads directly to cosmic consciousness Aka God).
(1) though of course he doesn't say that; he claims that he is opposed to 'Fundy' atheists, and lies about us to make that accusation stick.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-26-2018 at 01:58 PM..
I "lump" all together because all the various versions are worth considering as a whole. Why they all exist and why they are all different...
"The results" you say? You almost make it sound like we should somehow be satisfied by the results, but I still see a little too much madness all over the world and not enough sanity!
Ok lump so the atheist countries vs the non atheist countries and compare.
East Germany vs ?
Soviet Russia vs take your pick
Commie China vs..
Compare those 3 <bleep> to any non atheist country.
Last edited by mensaguy; 03-28-2018 at 03:42 PM..
Reason: language
Silly only to you. It is irrelevant what the trait is, the point is that just because Stalin was an atheist doesn't mean he killed people in the military / arts / politics / churches because of his atheism.
The fact you had to move the goal posts to avoid this part is telling.
And its only consistent coincidence that all the countries that slaughter millions of their own people are atheist. Sure i believe ya.
gays in a meeting hall having a discussion, listening to a speaker, or practicing in the gay choir
is no different from
religious people in a meeting hall having a discussion, listening to a speaker, or practicing in the church choir
if I walk in a gay bar and someone grabs my ass, that is most definitely someone imposing their will on me.
your bias is showing "gay, yay good!" "religion boo bad"
if you don't like religion, then stay out of church, but don't try to say the religious can't gather.
if you don't like gays grabbing your ass, then stay out of gay bars, but don't say gays can't gather.
your logic is flawed and your blind spots are showing big time
Unless I read wrong he said he wished gay bard had signs that say they're gay bars, obviously so he could avoid going in.
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