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The lie is believing that a temporary physical existence is much more important than eternal spiritual existence. In the grand scheme of things, it is downright foolish. You are basically saying that your happiness in this life which will only extend for a few decades at most is important than seeking out the blessings from God and having rewards in the afterlife which lasts forever. That's a lousy exchange rate especially since even those who achieve a high standard of happiness with their life still have to deal with the countless problems and pains that come with being a human being. On top of no guarantee that your happiness couldn't be snatched away in a second.
Yes but to have this long afterlife I not only have to believe in a God, and not only the Christian God but to follow the rules as a particular church or ideology demands. No I don't think it is a good bargain, giving up who or what you are for the promise that there are many afterlifes but in addition to giving up who you are you must choose the correct promise with no possible way in which to choose which if any are correct.
Now Jeff, if there is a God, and I do admit that there is some possibility of one existing, I would rather take my chance that I will be judged for who and what I am rather than that I made the lucky guess at worshipping the correct flavour of God.
If I based my life on it could be snatched at any time I wouldn't have bothered getting an education, getting married, having mortgages or bought plane tickets for our next vacation. At 67 my life has yet to be snatched suddenly hence I live in a nice and unique old house, have our next trip planned and mostly paid for, have a decent higher education and more important than anything else have spent the last 44 years happily married to my love, my very best friend and some one who has made me a much better person than I would otherwise have been. If sin has any meaning, I think it would be a sin to deny another person this wonderful life simply because they are attracted to the same gender instead of the opposite one.
Your sincere and deeply held religious belief is the only reason that you too would not wish for homosexuals to have a similar fulfilled life as I have had.
To Jeff, whether I was delivering groceries or not, I would like nothing more than to be a part of a congregation where a pastor was preaching against homosexuality. I hope that I would have the guts to stand up in front of everyone and call the pastor out for preaching hateful lies! Moreover, from a scriptural perspective I would shame the pastor right in front of his congregation. For you and the several others on these religious forums, Jeff, the scriptures you regard as condemning homosexuality per se are not your friend.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
The sad truth is one day you will have to stand before God and give account for the people who lived a life of sin and paid the consequences because they may have listened to your distortion of the truth. The Bible is plain as day that homosexuality is a sin. You can call them clobber verses or attached conditions all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.
There is not one reference in the Bible that says, "homosexuality is a sin" ...not ONE! There ARE references to same-gender sexual practices relative to idolatry that are given a 'no no' by God in Leviticus and by Paul in a couple of places in the New Testament ...but NOWHERE do we see the term 'homosexuality is a sin' ...this term is a 'modern' human construct that was not in use prior to 1946.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If homosexuality is perfect and natural then a verse like Romans 1:27 wouldn't say it is unnatural. it doesn't matter if it is in the context of pagan worship. The verse says same sex desires is unnatural. I don't know how much plainer it has to be than that.
<sigh>
When are Christians going to get it into their heads that Paul was, a) NOT God, and b) was NOT an expert in human sexuality? Paul responded in his letters to items that had been brought to his attention by others, items that he may not have even witnessed himself. As far as Paul would have been concerned, there was no such thing as a homosexual as we today define the term. How could he possibly have known what we today now know about human sexuality? He could not have known and we need to acknowledge this!
Moreover, when he references the practices that are (apparently) occurring in the pagan temples, Paul is simply assuming that the males in question are HETEROSEXUALS performing same-gender sexual rituals with male prostitutes ...sexual practices that would normally be 'unnatural' to a heterosexual person. And, Paul may well have been correct since the 'religious' sexual rituals performed in temples had NOTHING to do with whether or not one was gay or straight. Probably normally heterosexual males WERE performing 'unnatural' deeds with other males. These sexual rituals were performed to appease the idols in exchange for 'supernatural' favors and had nothing or little to do with one's sexual orientation per se.
Of course it's difficult for we in the year 2018 to understand the religious mindset of those superstitious people of 2000-plus years ago; however, we have to acknowledge that the things that we consider 'weird'* today were actually going on in ancient times. You really DO need to educate yourself on pagan idolatry, Jeff, since ignorance of the topic leads you to remain stilted in your approach to these so-called 'clobber texts' of scripture. Is this intentional on your part?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Futhermore, you can't find a single verse in the entire Bible that speaks of homosexuality in a positive context.
Truly, Jeff ...the ONLY references to same-gender sexual practices (less than a half-dozen times in the ENTIRE Bible!) refer to pagan idolatry practices. I've asked this MANY times previously but I may as well ask again ...provide just one passage of scripture where reference to same-gender sexual practice DOES NOT refer to pagan idolatry ...just ONE!
* Not necessarily my view but there are many today who find Christian rituals, i.e. praying into thin air and beseeching an imaginary deity to provide for them personal and supernatural favors, just as 'weird'.
The sad truth is one day you will have to stand before God and give account for the people who lived a life of sin and paid the consequences because they may have listened to your distortion of the truth. The Bible is plain as day that homosexuality is a sin. You can call them clobber verses or attached conditions all you want, but it doesn't change the truth.
If homosexuality is perfect and natural then a verse like Romans 1:27 wouldn't say it is unnatural. it doesn't matter if it is in the context of pagan worship. The verse says same sex desires is unnatural. I don't know how much plainer it has to be than that.
Futhermore, you can't find a single verse in the entire Bible that speaks of homosexuality in a positive context.
The "verse", which was not written as a "verse", I might remind you, is written by Paul, a person who came out of the Jewish tradition and so who believes that to be true. That was the thinking in that time and place by the people who were in leadership roles. No one questioned it, just as no one questioned that women were lesser beings or that men by possession of a penis made better leaders. All these things, as a matter of fact, are written by straight males. That right there is a clue that we are not getting the whole story because only a portion of humanity's views are represented.
This is the danger of trying to put forth the false notion that The Bible = What God Said. It simply is not true.
We are no longer constrained to that time and place, and we've opened our minds and gained the knowledge to know that some members of the human race are simply attracted to others of the same gender. It has nothing to do with God.
If we drop those old, restrictive false notions, we will be better at expanding our knowledge of who/what God really is and seeing our connections to and commonality with all of humanity and creation.
The "verse", which was not written as a "verse", I might remind you, is written by Paul, a person who came out of the Jewish tradition and so who believes that to be true. That was the thinking in that time and place by the people who were in leadership roles. No one questioned it, just as no one questioned that women were lesser beings or that men by possession of a penis made better leaders. All these things, as a matter of fact, are written by straight males. That right there is a clue that we are not getting the whole story because only a portion of humanity's views are represented.
This is the danger of trying to put forth the false notion that The Bible = What God Said. It simply is not true.
We are no longer constrained to that time and place, and we've opened our minds and gained the knowledge to know that some members of the human race are simply attracted to others of the same gender. It has nothing to do with God.
If we drop those old, restrictive false notions, we will be better at expanding our knowledge of who/what God really is and seeing our connections to and commonality with all of humanity and creation.
Very nicely written.
Yes, when you think back to all the things that were condoned in the bible, including slavery. And all the things that were not "condoned" in the bible -- such as equality for women. We're so much of a better place now.
Yes, when you think back to all the things that were condoned in the bible, including slavery. And all the things that were not "condoned" in the bible -- such as equality for women. We're so much of a better place now.
Agreed. It's a shame that (supposedly) educated people today continue to think that bigotry is sanctioned because anonymous men who pooped in holes decided it was "God's word."
Agreed. It's a shame that (supposedly) educated people today continue to think that bigotry is sanctioned because anonymous men who pooped in holes decided it was "God's word."
Futhermore, you can't find a single verse in the entire Bible that speaks of homosexuality in a positive context.
Actually we can. Two verses actually. Both in Matthew 8:5-13 & Luke 7:1-10 we hear of a centurion asking Jesus to heal his slave. The actual term in Greek is pais. That term denotes a younger person in a same-sex relationship.
Clearly Jesus had no issue with the relationship because he healed the slave. Might even say he supported the relationship, or else why did he heal him?
Futhermore, you can't find a single verse in the entire Bible that speaks of homosexuality in a positive context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy
Actually we can. Two verses actually. Both in Matthew 8:5-13 & Luke 7:1-10 we hear of a centurion asking Jesus to heal his slave. The actual term in Greek is pais. That term denotes a younger person in a same-sex relationship.
Clearly Jesus had no issue with the relationship because he healed the slave. Might even say he supported the relationship, or else why did he heal him?
Furthermore, if homosexuality had been seen as being the major sin that modern-day Christians have made it out to be, it would surely have been expected that Jesus, somewhere in His teaching, would have given the matter some of His time. But ...He never breathed a word about it. This fact must be awfully frustrating for those Christians who are SO dependent on the Bible to support their anti-gay stance.
::Sigh:: Pride Parades are an abreaction to the ubiquitous, unloving (often hateful) belief among certain religions that homosexuals are an abomination. Abreactions are always extreme due to the built-up frustrations behind them. Where is the love in all this?
::Sigh:: Pride Parades are an abreaction to the ubiquitous, unloving (often hateful) belief among certain religions that homosexuals are an abomination. Abreactions are always extreme due to the built-up frustrations behind them. Where is the love in all this?
I have never been to an extreme Pride parade. All of the ones I have been to have been more like festivals with music, vendors, different groups, businesses, and organizations giving out literature or little free trinkets to market themselves, and tons of people who are happy to get to be themselves.
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