what's it like after death? (Isaiah, Revelation, priest, Biblically)
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That's not silly. Before thinking, we felt. Then we thought about our feelings. One of the first is: "Hungry. Where's that nipple?"
Damn' I missed that. You are right. I should have said that it is silly to ask 'what was it like to exist before you existed?' That's why it is valid to say 'That's what it is like when you stop existing'.
I hear the claims about existence after death, but the evidence is not compelling. It might be true. NDE's might be some indication of an afterlife, though I really doubt it. The argument is another 'gap for God' like Cosmic origins. It is appeal to unknowns. It is trying to force a particular conclusion when the explanation isn't known.
Worse, the right answer is not only 'we don't know', but it is also 'so if it is a glimpse of an afterlife, so what?'
"What" is going to be a Leap of Faith to one particular religion and one particular Holy book.
Nice to see that I consciously or unconsciously, managed to SLIGHTLY move you from your hardcore Atheists position, and now you are moving away from certainty in the belief of Atheism towards the game of probabilities.
At least, you have opened up.
I think it’s a good thing.
You flatter yourself, old son. This is a view that I have held since my teens. I am now over 70.
The 'hardcore atheist' position is what You thought - not me.
I mean, why go to a paradise where you have to punch a clock and work all day?
Unless working is your idea of utopia, I would imagine most people would want a paradise whereby they can indulge in their former hobbies, travel, do things they couldn't do in life, and set parameters for things like, "I won't ever get bored of doing this" or "the friends I bring to my paradise won't do what they did in life, which is to find a lover and then abandon me and all his/her other friends."
We could even explore other eras of history, perhaps live in the Roman Empire for a few months or perhaps even BE the emperor.
I will agree that, at some point in a person's afterlife, they will want to experience what it's like to be a king or a billionaire blue-blood.
But in a utopian paradise, would you want to have a functioning economy where you have to keep earning money in order to do the things you enjoy? And then having no time to do those things anyway because you have to work all the time and only get one or two weeks of vacation every year?
Nah.
Actually, truck driving might be an appealing thing to do for those like me who enjoy the freedom of the open road, not being stuck in a cubicle or chained to some factory machine all day. Of course, I wouldn't want what destroyed the appeal of trucking -- which is GPS tracking. Now it's like having your boss in the passenger seat during your whole trip with even your bathroom breaks pre-planned and timed. Nah, I would get rid of that in my truck driving utopia!
But that's what I mean about a person's desires -- you just never know what might be appealing to some and horrifying to others.
This is also why I said earlier that only people of good moral character would end up in Heaven -- because without that, you could have rapists whose idea of paradise is having plenty of women to rape without any consequences. Or Hitler wanting to rule the world -- and getting to do just that -- while making the Jews extinct. Because people will be people even in your paradise, thus, any harm you would do to others would be real. In other words, people wouldn't be holograms or astral projections or some such. They would be real. Of course, in Heaven, people would have to be able to exist in more than one place simultaneously.
That way, for instance, I could have my best friend in my Heaven ... and my best friend could have me in his Heaven simultaneously.
I've always been very critical of the Jehovah's Witnesses on this point (the afterlife).
In most of the Watchtower pamphlets I've received seems to show JWs engaged in farming! And not with tractors, combines, irrigation sprinklers, and any sort of modern technology. No, no, they were in the fields toiling away with hoe and plow. Of course, they were wearing khakis and polo shirts with their hair neatly parted to the side -- gotta have that "Young Republican" haircut for some reason -- but they were still toiling away in the fields as if it were the Dark Ages. The father and son were tilling the soil with a hoe while mom and daughter were dutifully gathering fruit from the trees. I mean, wait, we have to EAT in the afterlife? And wait, wait .. wasn't the entire idea of having to farm a punishment for Adam and Eve's disobedience? So does that mean said punishment even follows us into the afterlife?!?
Yeah, to me, the JWs version of "paradise" looks pretty bleak, to be honest ... and I loathe khaki clothing. Nor will I be caught wearing a dress while I'm out harvesting fruit. If there was ever an occasion to get some lulz from an afterlife, there it is.
Okay, I'll shut up now.
I use as a Bible bookmark a handout i got that shows an afterlife paradise, with some dude strumming a lute (no electricity in paradise, you know) while gloating in an appreciative way at a ASEAN teenage girl with long hair. Purely pure thoughts in his head, of course.
Why dont we look at what 'evidence' we have. Normally, people look at the opinions and evidence out there and make up their mind.
For you it will be different but for me, it goes like this...
There are many occult texts which describe the conditions where the physical spirit goes after life. There are many religious texts too which describe their version of the same thing. Some even agree as to what happens and what it looks like.
Now, we have to acknowledge that there are some people throughout history who claim to have been able to leave their physical body and move around in that other reality, some have been religious Saints, some have been occult Masters, some have been witches, and some have been monks and various adepts. OK, we cannot say this is what happens after death, but at least it IS another reality they are describing, so it is more likely there IS another reality other than just this one.
In these times, there are accounts of NDEs, Astral Projections, occult techniques. There are people teaching methods (such as the Monroe Institute, and others) who say they can teach you to experience another reality, and the people who have done this extensively all agree some basic similarities. Where are these people going to? Who are they 'talking' to when they 'see' their relatives who have died?
The US governemnet funded the Remote Viewing program for nearly 25 years and is probably STILL funding it in various ways through various channels. These RV guys have projected their minds to other places into other realities and the military thought it was good enough to keep on paying for it for 24 years??? When NASA cannot keep a consistent funding, do we believe the military would fund some black project which they were not getting any useable intelligence from? This still does not tell us about the afterlife, I agree. However, the RV guys have developed a scientific repeatable way to go into these states and reportedly when they are in those states, they sometimes encounter beings from other realities. So...who are these other beings?
So, if we care to look, there are quite a few different texts and accounts we can refer to when looking for similarities and if we find some - maybe they found the answers?
I often ask myself, why dont people look and start searching for answers which satisfy their beliefs if they are bothered by the question?
Matadora got in ahead of me. Succinctly, she is asking for substantiation of bald claims. I was going to argue that this apparent common human experience of leaving the body is no more significant than dreams of flying, a feeling of a guardian presence, a belief in a Destiny, spouse or bullet with your name on, a pair of lucky socks, or the need to avoid stepping on pavement cracks so your old Ma won't suddenly find herself paralysed from the waist down.
These are first option human delusions. There might be something in them, as there might be in Feng -shui, Homeopathy, NDE's, UFO's, prayer or dowsing. So far the evidence hasn't been compelling. I think we need better evidence than appeal to numbers and vaguely hinting at scientific investigations.
Why in the world would anyone credit NDE's? The body is still functioning even if the support system has failed, it's the only reason that getting the support system going again works.
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I should have said that it is silly to ask 'what was it like to exist before you existed?' That's why it is valid to say 'That's what it is like when you stop existing'.
