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Old 09-15-2018, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Texas
44,259 posts, read 64,391,094 times
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A super easy reference point for morality is empathy.

It would feel terrible if someone xyz'd to me. So I should never do it to anyone else.

This concept of morality stemming from religion is laughable. Some of it may be codified in religion, but it all came from man.

 
Old 09-15-2018, 04:24 PM
 
Location: USA
4,747 posts, read 2,351,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What of the "particles" of energy that comprise the actual you - your consciousness???
Thoughts are the process of electrochemical charges exchanged between neurons based on positive and negative attractraction/repulsion. Very much in the same way that bits in a computer operate on a system of 0 or 1.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,373 posts, read 20,199,290 times
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At least ComeCloser isn't afraid to trumpet the error of his ways.


Whereas the OP remains hiding behind the curtain.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 04:36 PM
 
63,822 posts, read 40,118,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Thoughts are the process of electrochemical charges exchanged between neurons based on positive and negative attractraction/repulsion. Very much in the same way that bits in a computer operate on a system of 0 or 1.
I am not conversing with a process of 0's and 1's. I am conversing with the composite energy event that manifests out of the process as YOU.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 04:36 PM
 
Location: California side of the Sierras
11,162 posts, read 7,642,612 times
Reputation: 12523
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser View Post
I claimed no such thing. Perhaps you skim read? I don't know. Im talking about tribal people and the reality of how tribes interact with one another. Shoving words to the contrary down my throat for me does not make me any more likely to want resay all I have already said. No worries. Not everyone is able to open their mind to what they don't want to hear anyway. Its no big deal.
I apologize. It was Nerfball who claimed morality based on belief in God does not change, not you.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,840 posts, read 24,359,728 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball View Post
Atheists typically insist that they are as “moral” as anyone else and bristle at any suggestion that they lack “morality.” However, almost never is anyone really accusing atheists as a group of being objectively less “good” than Christians or Hindus.

The real issue is, what is the reference point – the standard – for an atheist’s supposed morality? Almost always we find that the morality claimed by atheists is really derived from some religious moral code (the Ten Commandments, for example) or combination of moral codes the atheists have simply appropriated for themselves.

“I don’t rape or murder,” an atheist may say. OK, fine, but what is the atheist’s standard for thinking that rape and murder are immoral? Not raping or murdering may be a rational decision. You won’t have to hide from the police or face life in prison if you don’t rape or murder. But this has nothing to do with morality. The law prohibits and punishes rape and murder, but the law prohibits and punishes lots of things that no one considers immoral. Whether something is illegal, even criminal, is a different matter from whether it’s immoral.

“Everyone just knows rape and murder are immoral,” the atheist may respond. But this begs the question. How and why does everyone know this?

A Christian has an easy answer: Our reference point is God, who has revealed himself in the Bible and the person of Jesus. God determines our morality. Moreover, we believe (as Romans 2:14-15 teaches) that the basic laws of God are written on the hearts of even nonbelievers (“They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them”).

(A popular question is whether something is moral only because God prohibits it. If God had said “Thou shalt rape,” would rape then be moral? The point that is missed by those who play this game is that God is perfect goodness – there is no morality apart from God, but the God whose very nature is perfect goodness would never have said “Thou shalt rape.”)

Christian apologists like Dr. Frank Turek accuse atheists of “stealing from God” because they say you can’t have a genuine moral code without a higher external standard – like God. You can have a personal opinion or a group consensus or even a law, but you won’t have morality.

I used to try to understand the atheist position by thinking that perhaps evolution rather than God might have written a basic moral code in the hearts of humans. Evolution would serve as the higher external standard, if you will. But this doesn’t work for lots of reasons, as even atheist spokesmen like Richard Dawkins recognize.

According to Dawkins, we are “survival machines created by our selfish genes,” whose only objective is survival. The goal of evolution isn’t truth or morality.

It’s an unsolved puzzle as to how consciousness could arise in a survival machine in a purely materialistic universe. It’s an equally unsolved puzzle as to how a process whose only goal is survival would or could have produced minds capable of discerning truth or morality.

If a process whose only goal is survival could have generated a code of conduct and hardwired it into humans, would it look anything like the Ten Commandments? Would it look anything like the morality that most atheists claim for themselves?

I think it’s pretty clear that moral codes, both religious ones and the ones that atheists claim for themselves, are aimed at controlling and restraining the selfish, survival-driven human traits that atheists believe evolution has produced (and that Christians believe sin has produced). Most moral codes don’t come close to fitting into any model of the “survival of the fittest.”

The notion of an evolutionary moral code is an oxymoron. “Thou shalt not rape” would mean nothing more than “Survival will be enhanced if you don’t rape.” It’s not at all clear that most of the behaviors that we commonly regard as immoral would adversely affect survival. The elimination of the elderly and the physically and mentally infirm, which most people would regard as immoral, would seemingly fit nicely in a purely survival-driven moral code.

Dawkins is at least honest in this respect. In a debate with a computer scientist who is also an evolutionist, the following exchange took place:
Jaron Lanier: “There’s a large group of people who simply are uncomfortable with accepting evolution because it leads to what they perceive as a moral vacuum, in which their best impulses have no basis in nature.”
Richard Dawkins: “All I can say is, ‘That’s just tough. We have to face up to the truth.’”
Dawkins argues for a kinder and gentler world in which the best human instincts predominate, but he can’t tell you why we have those instincts or why a purely survival-driven process would allow us to switch it off so they can predominate.

I find a world in which right and wrong are purely matters of personal opinion, power-group consensus or legislation to be a frightening thought. But it seems to me that this is the world that honest atheists are stuck with. They simply have no legitimate claim to an “atheist morality.”

Christians and other believers are, of course, capable of perverting or misapplying their moral codes. But the point I'm making here is that believers can legitimately claim to be following (or at least attempting to follow) a moral code while an atheist can't. Atheist "morality" is always going to be subject to shifts in societal norms or the dictates of whichever group happens to be in power, which is really no morality at all.
Frankly, I think this is the dumbest post of the the forum.

Do you think that all the Buddhists in Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Laos, Mongolia, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Malaysia, and Vietnam have a lack of morality.

Yes, we can actually think for ourselves. We don't have to be scared by hell to behave...like you do.

A sense of morality can come from many things. Something as simple as "Do unto others..." Or respecting a teacher or other person, and emulating them.

Oh, you think "right and wrong are purely matters of personal opinion, power-group consensus or legislation to be a frightening thought". Well, I hate to break it to you, but I can tell you so many stories about immoral christians.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 06:12 PM
 
7,596 posts, read 4,166,702 times
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I will try a different direction. The 10 commandments exist. Do all of the believers obey the 10 commandments? No. So what is the point of targeting atheists?
 
Old 09-15-2018, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,373 posts, read 20,199,290 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elyn02 View Post
I will try a different direction. The 10 commandments exist. Do all of the believers obey the 10 commandments? No. So what is the point of targeting atheists?

Every time I think of the first four commandments I am put in mind of South Park's Cartman demanding that others "respect MAH AUTHORITAH!!"


Such a petulant, demanding, narcissistic, little god-thing.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,904 posts, read 6,017,633 times
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This assumes that god is a good standard of morality. What this ignores is the varying moralities that exist between different followers of faith. For example, god may tell you that rape and murder are morally wrong, but fundamentalist muslims believe that it's moral to rape and murder infidels. If god is an objective reference point then it follows that both your morality and the morality of the fundamentalist muslim are equally valid which leads to the same moral relativism that some believers accuse atheists of holding. While atheists and theists may call it different things, their reference point of morality comes down to the same thing-the survival of the species. Humans are social animals which means that they generally have to form social groups in order to survive. A society that allowed people to go around raping and murdering each other would crumble. This is why civilized people consider rape and murder wrong and why rapists and murders are either banished or locked away.
 
Old 09-15-2018, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,840 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32972
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser View Post
In a society that doesn't forbid slavery I would not be looking for anyone to claim it is wrong. The trick here is did Jesus claim it was right?

Maybe he would have. It is hard today to understand the ways of tribes for many. Tribes war. If the loser of the war is lucky, those people will be taken as slaves, or sold to other people in trade. If the winning tribe doesn't want to be bothered, they just kill you and every other member of your tribe. Im not going to make a judgement on which is more moral of a disposition for a tribes enemies.
And that's part of the problem with the bible and christians. They look for tricks to explain things that ought to be obvious.
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