Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Atheists typically insist that they are as “moral” as anyone else and bristle at any suggestion that they lack “morality.” However, almost never is anyone really accusing atheists as a group of being objectively less “good” than Christians or Hindus.
The real issue is, what is the reference point – the standard – for an atheist’s supposed morality? Almost always we find that the morality claimed by atheists is really derived from some religious moral code (the Ten Commandments, for example) or combination of moral codes the atheists have simply appropriated for themselves.
“I don’t rape or murder,” an atheist may say. OK, fine, but what is the atheist’s standard for thinking that rape and murder are immoral? Not raping or murdering may be a rational decision. You won’t have to hide from the police or face life in prison if you don’t rape or murder. But this has nothing to do with morality. The law prohibits and punishes rape and murder, but the law prohibits and punishes lots of things that no one considers immoral. Whether something is illegal, even criminal, is a different matter from whether it’s immoral.
“Everyone just knows rape and murder are immoral,” the atheist may respond. But this begs the question. How and why does everyone know this?
A Christian has an easy answer: Our reference point is God, who has revealed himself in the Bible and the person of Jesus. God determines our morality. Moreover, we believe (as Romans 2:14-15 teaches) that the basic laws of God are written on the hearts of even nonbelievers (“They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them”).
(A popular question is whether something is moral only because God prohibits it. If God had said “Thou shalt rape,” would rape then be moral? The point that is missed by those who play this game is that God is perfect goodness – there is no morality apart from God, but the God whose very nature is perfect goodness would never have said “Thou shalt rape.”)
Christian apologists like Dr. Frank Turek accuse atheists of “stealing from God” because they say you can’t have a genuine moral code without a higher external standard – like God. You can have a personal opinion or a group consensus or even a law, but you won’t have morality.
I used to try to understand the atheist position by thinking that perhaps evolution rather than God might have written a basic moral code in the hearts of humans. Evolution would serve as the higher external standard, if you will. But this doesn’t work for lots of reasons, as even atheist spokesmen like Richard Dawkins recognize.
According to Dawkins, we are “survival machines created by our selfish genes,” whose only objective is survival. The goal of evolution isn’t truth or morality.
It’s an unsolved puzzle as to how consciousness could arise in a survival machine in a purely materialistic universe. It’s an equally unsolved puzzle as to how a process whose only goal is survival would or could have produced minds capable of discerning truth or morality.
If a process whose only goal is survival could have generated a code of conduct and hardwired it into humans, would it look anything like the Ten Commandments? Would it look anything like the morality that most atheists claim for themselves?
I think it’s pretty clear that moral codes, both religious ones and the ones that atheists claim for themselves, are aimed at controlling and restraining the selfish, survival-driven human traits that atheists believe evolution has produced (and that Christians believe sin has produced). Most moral codes don’t come close to fitting into any model of the “survival of the fittest.”
The notion of an evolutionary moral code is an oxymoron. “Thou shalt not rape” would mean nothing more than “Survival will be enhanced if you don’t rape.” It’s not at all clear that most of the behaviors that we commonly regard as immoral would adversely affect survival. The elimination of the elderly and the physically and mentally infirm, which most people would regard as immoral, would seemingly fit nicely in a purely survival-driven moral code.
Dawkins is at least honest in this respect. In a debate with a computer scientist who is also an evolutionist, the following exchange took place:
Jaron Lanier: “There’s a large group of people who simply are uncomfortable with accepting evolution because it leads to what they perceive as a moral vacuum, in which their best impulses have no basis in nature.”
Richard Dawkins: “All I can say is, ‘That’s just tough. We have to face up to the truth.’”
Dawkins argues for a kinder and gentler world in which the best human instincts predominate, but he can’t tell you why we have those instincts or why a purely survival-driven process would allow us to switch it off so they can predominate.
I find a world in which right and wrong are purely matters of personal opinion, power-group consensus or legislation to be a frightening thought. But it seems to me that this is the world that honest atheists are stuck with. They simply have no legitimate claim to an “atheist morality.”
Christians and other believers are, of course, capable of perverting or misapplying their moral codes. But the point I'm making here is that believers can legitimately claim to be following (or at least attempting to follow) a moral code while an atheist can't. Atheist "morality" is always going to be subject to shifts in societal norms or the dictates of whichever group happens to be in power, which is really no morality at all.
The question is not "How can there be morality without God? The question should be, "Should we worship an immoral monster?
Numbers 31
[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 6
[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21] And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Joshua 11:
19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Ezekiel 9
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Samuel 1 15:
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
According to the OT, God not only condonded hacking children and babies to death with swords, he commanded that it be done!
Next, consider "The Word of God" concerning slavery.
[i]Exodus 21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25:
45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Deuteronomy 15:
16 But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you,
17 then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave[a] forever. And to your female slave[b] you shall do the same.
18 It shall not seem hard to you when you let him go free from you, for at half the cost of a hired worker he has served you six years. So the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.
And so on.
The question really becomes, HOW CAN ANYONE WHO CONSIDERS THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLICAL GOD TO BE THE TEMPLATE FOR MORALITY, HAVE THE STONES TO QUESTION THE ABILITY OF OTHERS TO BE MORAL?
Nomadic tribes usually all do the same thing, based on natural order, when they war.
They take the remnants of the of the losing tribe as their own slaves. This sounds cold, but it served the natural selective purpose of genetically refreshing bloodlines and helping to keep the winning tribe healthy. These people are spared genocide although their original tribe may no longer exist. Many of them that make this transition do not remain slaves and become tribal members. This is typical of nomadic tribes no matter if they were in the Eastern Hemisphere or the Western Hemisphere.
Followers of God are murderers? That's a typically stereotypical comment don't you think? Some people commit genocide in a god's name, yes. Atheist groups commit genocide and take full responsibility for it themselves too. Would it be fair to claim all atheists are murderers too?
People have a way of twisting whatever they believe - pro or con gods - to suit their purposes, don't they?
16But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: 17But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
-Deuteronomy 20 -KJV.
The question is not "How can there be morality without God? The question should be, "Should we worship an immoral monster?
Numbers 31
[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Joshua 6
[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21] And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
Joshua 11:
19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.
Ezekiel 9
[4] And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
Samuel 1 15:
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
According to the OT, God not only condonded hacking children and babies to death with swords, he commanded that it be done!
Next, consider "The Word of God" concerning slavery.
[i]Exodus 21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.
Leviticus 25:
45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property.
46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
Deuteronomy 15:
16 But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you,
17 then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave[a] forever. And to your female slave[b] you shall do the same.
18 It shall not seem hard to you when you let him go free from you, for at half the cost of a hired worker he has served you six years. So the Lord your God will bless you in all that you do.
And so on.
The question really becomes, HOW CAN ANYONE WHO CONSIDERS THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLICAL GOD TO BE THE TEMPLATE FOR MORALITY, HAVE THE STONES TO QUESTION THE ABILITY OF OTHERS TO BE MORAL?
Nomadic tribes usually all do the same thing, based on natural order, when they war.
They take the remnants of the of the losing tribe as their own slaves. This sounds cold, but it served the natural selective purpose of genetically refreshing bloodlines and helping to keep the winning tribe healthy. These people are spared genocide although their original tribe may no longer exist. Many of them that make this transition do not remain slaves and become tribal members. This is typical of nomadic tribes no matter if they were in the Eastern Hemisphere or the Western Hemisphere.
Followers of God are murderers? That's a typically stereotypical comment don't you think? Some people commit genocide in a god's name, yes. Atheist groups commit genocide and take full responsibility for it themselves too. Would it be fair to claim all atheists are murderers too?
People have a way of twisting whatever they believe - pro or con gods - to suit their purposes, don't they?
This is where Satan would come into play for a believer. Someone uses the faith to puzzle followers. Sometimes evil people use the faith to claim authority and then order the people of a place to do things under fear of death. Does that really differ from the abuses/liberties taken by any European monarch who would also claim to be acting under the authority of god?
Communism is a doctrine that when I read for the first time (although I just skim read it) seemed like a perfectly reasonable societal system, and I really did not understand why I was supposed to fear it and be against it. Religion is not allowed in communist areas because you cant control a mind that is being influenced by religion. How does a doctrine compete with a god maybe?
How much murder and genocide has been committed in the name of, or to advance the causes of, Communism?
Marxism and Fascism were also anti-god for the most part. I'm not sure that anywhere in their official rhetoric it comes out and states that murder and genocide are valuable assets to these systems.
How much murder and genocide has been committed in the name of, or to advance the causes of, Marxism and Fascism?
How many atheists could not tolerate the existence of believers?
Thank you, and again - no worries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
Marxism and Fascism were also anti-god for the most part. I'm not sure that anywhere in their official rhetoric it comes out and states that murder and genocide are valuable assets to these systems.
How much murder and genocide has been committed in the name of, or to advance the causes of, Marxism and Fascism?
Rather than declare that the Fascists were atheists in an attempt to dissociate them From Christianity, and that the leader and founder of the Fascist party, Adolf Hitler, had no belief in God, let's consider what Hitler actually said.
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (pg.25)
01
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
02
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Thanking God
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
03
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Deutschland Über Alles
I had so often sung "Deutschland über Alles" and shouted "Heil" at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
04
of 19
Adolf Hitler: God's Grace Smiles
Once again the songs of the Fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.
- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7
05
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fulfilling God's Mission
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
06
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fate of God
But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples 500 years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10
07
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God
In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily toward a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
08
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sacrilege Against God
Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
09
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Confidence in God
Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the "remaking" of the Reich as they call it.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
10
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Gold has Replaced God
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2
11
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God
It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 2
12
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Creation of God
That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 2
13
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Don't Just Talk About Fulfilling God's Will
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 10
14
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Doing Justice to God
To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German volk.
- Adolf Hitler in speech about the need for a moral regeneration of German, February 10, 1933
15
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Going Where God Wills
I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 15, 1936, Munich, Germany
16
of 19
Adolf Hitler: May God Bless Us
May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933
17
of 19
Adolf Hitler: When We Appear Before God...
We don't ask the Almighty, "Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: "Lord, you see that we have changed." The German people are no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people are once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and Fatherland.
- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933
18
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fighting for the Lord's Work
I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
19
of 19
Adolf Hitler in Conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber
The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then the church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the church as much as of fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.
Just as some confused evangelical;s claim one cannot know Jesus without the bible, so many evangelical also like to claim that one cannot be moral or do good without god (ROFLMFAO)
Why do Evangelicals believe and even teach that evil is natural and good is learned?
Why would anyone believe that a so called MERCIFUL, JUST and Benevolent god create evil, demand they learn to be good or face eternal damnation?
GOOD an LOVE are the default, we learn HATE and EVIL as a means to divide each other, be better than others and to show the world that some ineffective interpretation of god has blessed us???
All Christ ever did was GIVE to anyone and everyone who would TAKE from him.
Those who refused what Christ was giving, were left to their own demise and generally become HATEFUL, BITTER and BIGOTED...
I believe that if an atheist chooses not to commit rape or murder (and the vast majority of them do choose not to commit rape or murder) it's because they have a conscience. I believe every human being is born with one. From my own personal religious perspective, I could say that all human beings are born having what I would call "the light of Christ" within them. An atheist would undoubtedly have a different term for the same concept; I suspect that most of them would call it a "conscience." It doesn't matter where a person born or how he was raised. The innate knowledge of the difference between good and evil exists in all of us. It's absolute nonsense to say that fear of being caught is the reason most atheists don't kill or rape. If that were the case, you'd have to explain why some theists do. Nobody believes he's going to be caught when he commits a crime. That logic simply doesn't hold.
Nomadic tribes usually all do the same thing, based on natural order, when they war.
They take the remnants of the of the losing tribe as their own slaves. This sounds cold, but it served the natural selective purpose of genetically refreshing bloodlines and helping to keep the winning tribe healthy. These people are spared genocide although their original tribe may no longer exist. Many of them that make this transition do not remain slaves and become tribal members. This is typical of nomadic tribes no matter if they were in the Eastern Hemisphere or the Western Hemisphere.
Followers of God are murderers? That's a typically stereotypical comment don't you think? Some people commit genocide in a god's name, yes. Atheist groups commit genocide and take full responsibility for it themselves too. Would it be fair to claim all atheists are murderers too?
People have a way of twisting whatever they believe - pro or con gods - to suit their purposes, don't they?
This is where Satan would come into play for a believer. Someone uses the faith to puzzle followers. Sometimes evil people use the faith to claim authority and then order the people of a place to do things under fear of death. Does that really differ from the abuses/liberties taken by any European monarch who would also claim to be acting under the authority of god?
Communism is a doctrine that when I read for the first time (although I just skim read it) seemed like a perfectly reasonable societal system, and I really did not understand why I was supposed to fear it and be against it. Religion is not allowed in communist areas because you cant control a mind that is being influenced by religion. How does a doctrine compete with a god maybe?
How much murder and genocide has been committed in the name of, or to advance the causes of, Communism?
Marxism and Fascism were also anti-god for the most part. I'm not sure that anywhere in their official rhetoric it comes out and states that murder and genocide are valuable assets to these systems.
How much murder and genocide has been committed in the name of, or to advance the causes of, Marxism and Fascism?
How many atheists could not tolerate the existence of believers?
Thank you, and again - no worries.
Hutterites are as close to perfect communism as there has ever been and are solely a Christian group.
As far as totalitarian dictators killing others, they did not kill believers because they were believers, the killed all those they thought were dangerous to their power. How many millions of Muslims were killed by armies led by Christians in the last 20 years? How many aboriginal people were killed by Christians in the Americas and Australia? How many of his own people did the Shah kill, or the Ottoman empire or Americans fighting each other over the right to own people as oroperty?
If you are looking at morals of atheists compared to Christians it is best to do on a personal basis rather than a nation base because there are so many other factors to consider. Many communists died fighting fascist, in fact in WWII more communists than Christians died fighting Hitler.
I don't rape, murder or steal. I don't do illegal drugs and drink about one drink every three months. I have had pre material sex and have been married for over 40 years to the woman with whom I had the most pre married sex. I have never abused either an animal or a child and have never struck my wife or any other woman.
I know I am not perfect but I never claimed to be. Trying to be perfect is the recipe for failure. Hence I never claim to be a sinner. I think I am a good person what I have done wrong is on me not some 6000 year old woman and I don't expect someone who died 2000 years old to take my responsibilities away.
I think it was Matt Delahunty who said that we should strive for a fair society, one that we design not knowing what position we will occupy. Love respect, compassion, understanding, empathy are all within us. If we can use those in making our decisions about life we will be more moral than not by a long ways. That way we would see nothing wrong with a person believing in a God, or not, in a different God or not and in too adults having a cake to celebrate their lifetime commitment. Also we would then not be facists, white supremists, bigots, misnomist, rapists or animal abusers.
Rather than declare that the Fascists were atheists in an attempt to dissociate them From Christianity, and that the leader and founder of the Fascist party, Adolf Hitler, had no belief in God, let's consider what Hitler actually said.
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (pg.25)
01
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Acting According to God's Will
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2
02
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Thanking God
Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
03
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Deutschland Über Alles
I had so often sung "Deutschland über Alles" and shouted "Heil" at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5
04
of 19
Adolf Hitler: God's Grace Smiles
Once again the songs of the Fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.
- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7
05
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fulfilling God's Mission
What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8
06
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fate of God
But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples 500 years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10
07
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God
In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily toward a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11
08
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sacrilege Against God
Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
09
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Confidence in God
Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the "remaking" of the Reich as they call it.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1
10
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Gold has Replaced God
It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2
11
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Sin Against the Will of God
It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 2
12
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Creation of God
That this is possible may not be denied in a world where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people voluntarily submit to celibacy, obligated and bound by nothing except the injunction of the church. Should the same renunciation not be possible if this injunction is replaced by the admonition finally to put an end to the constant and continuous original sin of racial poisoning, and to give the Almighty Creator beings such as He Himself created?
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 2
13
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Don't Just Talk About Fulfilling God's Will
The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.
- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2, Chapter 10
14
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Doing Justice to God
To do justice to God and our own conscience, we have turned once more to the German volk.
- Adolf Hitler in speech about the need for a moral regeneration of German, February 10, 1933
15
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Going Where God Wills
I go the way that Providence dictates with the assurance of a sleepwalker.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 15, 1936, Munich, Germany
16
of 19
Adolf Hitler: May God Bless Us
May divine providence bless us with enough courage and enough determination to perceive within ourselves this holy German space.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, March 24, 1933
17
of 19
Adolf Hitler: When We Appear Before God...
We don't ask the Almighty, "Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: "Lord, you see that we have changed." The German people are no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people are once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and Fatherland.
- Adolf Hitler, Prayer, May 1, 1933
18
of 19
Adolf Hitler: Fighting for the Lord's Work
I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord's work.
- Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936
19
of 19
Adolf Hitler in Conversation with Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber
The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then the church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the church as much as of fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.
The real issue is, what is the reference point – the standard – for an atheist’s supposed morality? Almost always we find that the morality claimed by atheists is really derived from some religious moral code (the Ten Commandments, for example) or combination of moral codes the atheists have simply appropriated for themselves.
The Hebrews plagiarized their commandments from the Egyptians:
I have not robbed. I have not coveted I have not stolen
I have not committed wrong-doing against anyone
I have not done injustice in the place of Truth
I have not done evil
I have not debased a god
I have not done that which the gods abominate
I have not slandered a servant before his superior
I have not killed
I have not commanded to kill
I have not damaged the offerings to the gods
I have not copulated in sin
I have not been lascivious
I have not taken milk from the mouths of children
I have not neglected the days concerning their offerings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerfball
"I don’t rape or murder,” an atheist may say. OK, fine, but what is the atheist’s standard for thinking that rape and murder are immoral? Not raping or murdering may be a rational decision. You won’t have to hide from the police or face life in prison if you don’t rape or murder. But this has nothing to do with morality. The law prohibits and punishes rape and murder, but the law prohibits and punishes lots of things that no one considers immoral. Whether something is illegal, even criminal, is a different matter from whether it’s immoral.
“Everyone just knows rape and murder are immoral,” the atheist may respond. But this begs the question. How and why does everyone know this?
One need only ask if they wished to be treated the same.
Do you want to be violently raped?
Because, if you don't, you know, want to be violently raped, then you probably shouldn't be violently raping others.
You can also view it from a Cost-Benefit Analysis.
Society would never have advanced, if murder, rape, robbery, burglary/theft and the like were permitted.
Agriculture is very labor intensive. It took 95% of the population to work in agriculture, until technology allowed you to use only 90% of your population, and you arrived at that point only in the Middle Ages, and it wasn't until 1960 when you only needed 50% of your population working in agriculture, so that you could feed everyone.
A person can stand guard watching over you and your clan working in the fields and in your home, or they could make pottery, but they can't do both at the same time.
So, having rules frees up labor to be used in other endeavors, which benefits society.
Right. It "gave me the clue" that, as Hulsker noted, "how the world operates", is just how I said it did.
If you think otherwise, and that that the world doesn't operate like that (absent a "moral code" of some type, morality is relative and based upon preference and cultural precedence)...then put up your argument.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
