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Sorry. I was just kiddin. As a fully paid up Priest at the Temple of Darwinism, with a huge salary for sending out carry -cards, the Book of Darwinist Dogma, Administration of the 7 sects of Atheism and sending around the God- denial squad to ensure Uniformity of Though within the Cult, I have to adhere to the Rules, No 5 of which states: "Thou shalt not belong to two cults at once."
I have angered a few Christians for pointing out that they can't even prove that Jesus ever lived. Of course I know for sure just as all Christians know for sure, but when it comes right down to it, it cannot be proven. I mean, I think I can prove it in person, or at least I can give a doubter very good reasons why I believe he lived, but that is me.
The problem is all the evidence may well have come from Christian sources. Even if the passages by Tacitus and Josephus are genuine (which I doubt), the fact that they may have come from Christians sources means they are useless as evidence.
The fact that one of our earliest Christian sources, the Epistle to the Hebrews, says he was a divine being revealed in the OT makes me think he did not exist other than as a revealed angelic being. But revelation passed on by someone else is harder to sell than the alleged written record of an actual founder.
For fun, I just googled ."Atheists NDE who saw Jesus"...fun stuff.
Of course, the most famous is Howard Storm's....the mean guy, self proclaimed, that had the hellish experience..it was BAD...started to pray even...didnt know how so started out, "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."haha, great story...now he is a pastor.
I actually know people who have seen Jesus..and have read some stories on forums...where one was hugged..she's a nun now..I talk with her, she doesnt like me ..I go to a Catholic site sometimes..like once every couple years. I believe
that she was hugged by Jesus physically...i dont go for her beliefs is our issue.Lol.
For fun, I just googled ."Atheists NDE who saw Jesus"...fun stuff.
Of course, the most famous is Howard Storm's....the mean guy, self proclaimed, that had the hellish experience..it was BAD...started to pray even...didnt know how so started out, "I pledge allegiance to the flag..."haha, great story...now he is a pastor.
I actually know people who have seen Jesus..and have read some stories on forums...where one was hugged..she's a nun now..I talk with her, she doesnt like me ..I go to a Catholic site sometimes..like once every couple years. I believe
that she was hugged by Jesus physically...i dont go for her beliefs is our issue.Lol.
Ancient historians as well as modern day scholars, who actually have the depth of scholarship and training, do not doubt that Jesus existed. Good read for Christians and others who are interested in reading something more than people parroting ideas about Jesus being a myth or hoax.https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...d-jesus-exist/.
These scholars include skeptics who do not promote a Christian agenda but concede that Jesus existed as a historical figure. One such scholar is Bart Ehrman...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-...b_1349544.html
The earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis denounce Jesus as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer performing miracles by means of evil magic. I find this a bit ironic because they are actually acknowledging his supernatural powers. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel. So those in the ancient world didn't question whether Jesus existed. Think, if you're seeking to undermine the movement and its followers based on his teachings you're going to write and tell and deride him as a myth, an ideal, a hoax. But these ancient people didn't do that... because, he existed.
Some people are looking for a standard of proof that we would not require of other historical figures. Jesus was a man who chose to hang out with those marginalized by society, eschewed political and social prominence and ultimately was executed as a criminal. So you aren't going to find coins with his image or name, monuments and statues erected in his honor and the like.
In reality though the hardcore will continue to convince themselves that Jesus doesnt exist. When discoveries are made that validate what's recorded in the Bible its on to find some other reason not to believe.
Skeptics at one time derided the Greek Scriptures (New Testament, Gospel) accounts of Jesus teaching in a synagogue in Galilee. That is until archaeologists unearthed the ruins of a synagogue with walls lined with benches, a mosaic floor, and a stone the size of a foot locker, the Magdala Stone with the most sacred elements from the Temple in Jerusalem carved in relief.
Skeptics also pointed to the lack of any records regarding Pontius Pilate. That is until 1961 when a stone bearing his name and title, Praefectus Judaeae, was unearthed. Outside of the Gospel accounts there's this stone. Yet, no one seems to doubt him as a historical figure.
Ancient historians as well as modern day scholars, who actually have the depth of scholarship and training, do not doubt that Jesus existed. Good read for Christians and others who are interested in reading something more than people parroting ideas about Jesus being a myth or hoax.https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...d-jesus-exist/.
These scholars include skeptics who do not promote a Christian agenda but concede that Jesus existed as a historical figure. One such scholar is Bart Ehrman...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-...b_1349544.html
Most historians are not trained in the relevant fields, and when they are, many use methods that are not reliable. And of the number of historians who are experts in this time, many accept that the none existence of an early Jesus is plausible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
The earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis denounce Jesus as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer performing miracles by means of evil magic. I find this a bit ironic because they are actually acknowledging his supernatural powers. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel. So those in the ancient world didn't question whether Jesus existed. Think, if you're seeking to undermine the movement and its followers based on his teachings you're going to write and tell and deride him as a myth, an ideal, a hoax. But these ancient people didn't do that... because, he existed.
Yet Ignatius wrote about people who had a completely different Jesus to that of gospel Jesus. And if Jesus did exist, why did different Christians believe he lived 100 years before gospel Jesus? And why does one of the earliest christian texts that predates the gospel (Epistle to the Hebrews) say Jesus was a divine being who sacrificed one, and once only, in heaven; and that he never walked the earth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
Some people are looking for a standard of proof that we would not require of other historical figures. Jesus was a man who chose to hang out with those marginalized by society, eschewed political and social prominence and ultimately was executed as a criminal. So you aren't going to find coins with his image or name, monuments and statues erected in his honor and the like.
No, we are using exactly the same standard for a person who allegedly did magic, and died and was resurrected like a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
In reality though the hardcore will continue to convince themselves that Jesus doesnt exist. When discoveries are made that validate what's recorded in the Bible its on to find some other reason not to believe.
If only you had some evidence for a historical Jesus. Yet all we have is are the fictional gospels, and early claims that Jesus was an angelic being, plus some later interpolations into Josephus and Tacitus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me
Skeptics also pointed to the lack of any records regarding Pontius Pilate. That is until 1961 when a stone bearing his name and title, Praefectus Judaeae, was unearthed. Outside of the Gospel accounts there's this stone. Yet, no one seems to doubt him as a historical figure.
Skeptics did no such thing as Pilate was mentioned by his contemporary, Philo. He was also mentioned by Tacitus. So we had these records, all of which tell us what Pilate was like. And that was nothing like the Pilate portrayed in the gospels. Your argument is the usual apologetic rubbish posted by people ignorant of their history.
Ancient historians as well as modern day scholars, who actually have the depth of scholarship and training, do not doubt that Jesus existed. Good read for Christians and others who are interested in reading something more than people parroting ideas about Jesus being a myth or hoax.https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...d-jesus-exist/.
These scholars include skeptics who do not promote a Christian agenda but concede that Jesus existed as a historical figure. One such scholar is Bart Ehrman...https://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-...b_1349544.html
The earliest literature of the Jewish Rabbis denounce Jesus as the illegitimate child of Mary and a sorcerer performing miracles by means of evil magic. I find this a bit ironic because they are actually acknowledging his supernatural powers. Among pagans, the satirist Lucian and philosopher Celsus dismissed Jesus as a scoundrel. So those in the ancient world didn't question whether Jesus existed. Think, if you're seeking to undermine the movement and its followers based on his teachings you're going to write and tell and deride him as a myth, an ideal, a hoax. But these ancient people didn't do that... because, he existed.
Some people are looking for a standard of proof that we would not require of other historical figures. Jesus was a man who chose to hang out with those marginalized by society, eschewed political and social prominence and ultimately was executed as a criminal. So you aren't going to find coins with his image or name, monuments and statues erected in his honor and the like.
In reality though the hardcore will continue to convince themselves that Jesus doesnt exist. When discoveries are made that validate what's recorded in the Bible its on to find some other reason not to believe.
Skeptics at one time derided the Greek Scriptures (New Testament, Gospel) accounts of Jesus teaching in a synagogue in Galilee. That is until archaeologists unearthed the ruins of a synagogue with walls lined with benches, a mosaic floor, and a stone the size of a foot locker, the Magdala Stone with the most sacred elements from the Temple in Jerusalem carved in relief.
Skeptics also pointed to the lack of any records regarding Pontius Pilate. That is until 1961 when a stone bearing his name and title, Praefectus Judaeae, was unearthed. Outside of the Gospel accounts there's this stone. Yet, no one seems to doubt him as a historical figure.
.....
Yet Ignatius wrote about people who had a completely different Jesus to that of gospel Jesus. And if Jesus did exist, why did different Christians believe he lived 100 years before gospel Jesus? And why does one of the earliest christian texts that predates the gospel (Epistle to the Hebrews) say Jesus was a divine being who sacrificed one, and once only, in heaven; and that he never walked the earth?
....
Puzzling assertions among some good points, a very uneven post altogether. I assume you mean Ignatius of Antioch, how was "his" Jesus different? What "different Christians" believed that he lived before the "Gospel Jesus." and what material attests to this?
By your explication I assume you mean Hebrews 9: "…24For Christ did not enter a man-made copy of the true sanctuary, but He entered heaven itself, now to appear on our behalf in the presence of God. 25Nor did He enter heaven to offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.…" and it in NO way indicates that Jesus' "sacrifice" was in heaven. How you get this idea is a mystery to me.
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..I go to a Catholic site sometimes..like once every couple years. I believe 
