Faith without any reason vs Faith without any evidence (church, Mason, Catholic)
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I am pleased that you seem to grasp what resonates with my views, Arq. It suggests that you do understand the more subtle objections I present to your concrete materialism and its "leaps from evidence."
Rather than get involved in the 'subtleties' of your cockamaie beliefs, I prefer to stick to poking holes in the absurdities, faith -claim and logical errors. And of yourse your selectivce -memory denial of evey time your are shown to be irrational and illogical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
You seem to think I'm opposed to appealing to science or turning to it for knowledge about the world, when I never implied such a thing. What I did point out is that science cannot help us confirm those primary beliefs about the nature of reality which are properly basic. And this is not a controversial statement, just basic philosophy.
Philosophy can tell us nothing about the basics of how the world works or the nature of reality. It can speculate as much as it likes, but it is mere speculation until science conforms it.
I am pleased that you seem to grasp what resonates with my views, Arq. It suggests that you do understand the more subtle objections I present to your concrete materialism and its "leaps from evidence."
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Rather than get involved in the 'subtleties' of your cockamamie beliefs, I prefer to stick to poking holes in the absurdities, faith -claim and logical errors. And of course your selective -memory denial of every time you are shown to be irrational and illogical.
You cling so tenaciously to your delusional beliefs in your "debunking" abilities that it must have some deep psychological roots tied to your self-esteem. You have debunked nothing of my views and neither have any of those whose attempts you have lauded because you THINK they debunked my views. It will take more intellectual "stones" than have been arrayed against me thus far to debunk the scientific bases of my hypotheses. You can continue to have fun with my adopted Christian BELIEFS, though, since it seems to give you pleasure. You have displayed enough grasp of the Bible to qualify for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0
You seem to think I'm opposed to appealing to science or turning to it for knowledge about the world, when I never implied such a thing. What I did point out is that science cannot help us confirm those primary beliefs about the nature of reality which are properly basic. And this is not a controversial statement, just basic philosophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Philosophy can tell us nothing about the basics of how the world works or the nature of reality. It can speculate as much as it likes, but it is mere speculation until science confirms it.
This is something I fear you simply cannot grasp, Arq. Science can tell us HOW reality operates but it can NOT tell us WHAT it IS (the fundamental nature of it) or WHY. Philosophy is the interpretive discipline that uses what science discovers to try to answer those questions.
You cling so tenaciously to your delusional beliefs in your "debunking" abilities that it must have some deep psychological roots tied to your self-esteem. You have debunked nothing of my views and neither have any of those whose attempts you have lauded because you THINK they debunked my views. It will take more intellectual "stones" than have been arrayed against me thus far to debunk the scientific bases of my hypotheses. You can continue to have fun with my adopted Christian BELIEFS, though, since it seems to give you pleasure. You have displayed enough grasp of the Bible to qualify for that.
You are pathetic, old mate. The debunking has been done, and noted and so has your denial of it, and putting, (tediously) the same debunked old arguments again and again. You are the one with a deep Psychological need for denying that you your are ever wrong, because you have invested Faith in your own beliefs. And you prop this up by denying that you have been shown wrong or at least without a sound case, repeatedly, and you try to force this belief of yours by denial, deprecation and dishonesty.
Quote:
This is something I fear you simply cannot grasp, Arq. Science can tell us HOW reality operates but it can NOT tell us WHAT it IS (the fundamental nature of it) or WHY. Philosophy is the interpretive discipline that uses what science discovers to try to answer those questions.
This is something that You cannot grasp, Mystic. What Science can tell us about Reality is not affected in the least by not knowing what it is as base. It is looking like some kind of nothing with the potential to act as something. The nature of the Big bang Event suggests this. The solution to Infinite regression requires this. But we don't know. Neither does anyone. So it leaves you in the same place. Except that you pop "God" in there. The fundamental illogic of all Theism. Using unknowns as some kind of evidence.
At least you see that Philosophy goes on the basis of what science knows to speculate about what might be. I remember (if you don't) that I have said this from the start: Philosophy can suggest ideas that Science might prove, though come to think of it The Big Bang, Black holes, Quantim, the Higgs -Boson and the Holographic universe have all been found by science and Philosophy contributed nothing. Even the discussions on qualia seems to founder because Philosophy seemed unable to grasp some basics of what we Do know about the mind, the limitations of perception and how we counter that, the nature of light, and instead seemed to go off into rabbit -holes of Philosophic rules that led to error.
That's the benefit of 'concrete thinking'; it keeps one's feet on the ground and prevents the mind from floating off into the blue, as yours has done.
You cling so tenaciously to your delusional beliefs in your "debunking" abilities that it must have some deep psychological roots tied to your self-esteem. You have debunked nothing of my views and neither have any of those whose attempts you have lauded because you THINK they debunked my views. It will take more intellectual "stones" than have been arrayed against me thus far to debunk the scientific bases of my hypotheses. You can continue to have fun with my adopted Christian BELIEFS, though, since it seems to give you pleasure. You have displayed enough grasp of the Bible to qualify for that.
This is something I fear you simply cannot grasp, Arq. Science can tell us HOW reality operates but it can NOT tell us WHAT it IS (the fundamental nature of it) or WHY. Philosophy is the interpretive discipline that uses what science discovers to try to answer those questions.
Thank you.
This is exactly what I think. Even though sometimes I hate saying what I think.
But it just gets really old when these people keep applauding themselves for doing absolutely nothing. Zero.
This main forum could be such a nice place if skeptics didn't want to keep turning everything into a debate. Can't we just have a separate SUBFORUM for debate? Yes, there are some threads which are more debate-friendly in their original topic, but then these same types like to debate every new topic. It's just old. We've heard your thoughts before and we are not impressed. We're just sick of it.
This is exactly what I think. Even though sometimes I hate saying what I think.
But it just gets really old when these people keep applauding themselves for doing absolutely nothing. Zero.
This main forum could be such a nice place if skeptics didn't want to keep turning everything into a debate. Can't we just have a separate SUBFORUM for debate? Yes, there are some threads which are more debate-friendly in their original topic, but then these same types like to debate every new topic. It's just old. We've heard your thoughts before and we are not impressed. We're just sick of it.
Yes, it be very nice - for you - if all we pesky atheist went away and shut up and left you believers to wallow in your beliefs without anyone throwing spanners in the works.
But Ozzy, mate, spanners is what you badly need, and we are not going away, no matter how you might wish it. You are welcome to retire to Christianity Forum where we ungodly do not go, but it seems that you can't leave us alone. You have to keep stepping in and having a swipe at us.
This is exactly what I think. Even though sometimes I hate saying what I think.
But it just gets really old when these people keep applauding themselves for doing absolutely nothing. Zero.
This main forum could be such a nice place if skeptics didn't want to keep turning everything into a debate. Can't we just have a separate SUBFORUM for debate? Yes, there are some threads which are more debate-friendly in their original topic, but then these same types like to debate every new topic. It's just old. We've heard your thoughts before and we are not impressed. We're just sick of it.
Then why do you come here for goodness sake? Go to Christianity where you can all slap each other on the back, sing Kum ba ya, and congratulate each other on how you are the only people in the world who know the truth. The reason you are pissy is not our debating but your inability to put forward any verifiable evidence to back up your claims whilst we, on the other hand, have no problem burying your faith-based claims until not even your cap is showing! At which point, the only weapon left to you is to claim that you are being persecuted...and to flounce off claiming victory...only to return the following week with the same faith-based claims that we buried you with last week.
Have you ever thought that the reason you keep hearing the same arguments from us is because you keep presenting the same claims? Why do you expect a different argument when you keep giving us the same old tripe that we have debunked a thousand times. It's like asking us why we keep giving you the same answer every time you ask us why, when you drop a ball from your hand, it falls to the floor. Well it's because the answer to that question will always be the same...because that is the truth.
However, as you were told the last time you came here grizzling and whinging about us nasty atheists always beating you up. You don't have to come here. If your tear-stained wet pillow is keeping you awake at night, go somewhere else!!
This is exactly what I think. Even though sometimes I hate saying what I think.
But it just gets really old when these people keep applauding themselves for doing absolutely nothing. Zero.
This main forum could be such a nice place if skeptics didn't want to keep turning everything into a debate. Can't we just have a separate SUBFORUM for debate? Yes, there are some threads which are more debate-friendly in their original topic, but then these same types like to debate every new topic. It's just old. We've heard your thoughts before and we are not impressed. We're just sick of it.
Ozzy, several of us have said this before. But it's apparently worth saying again. For the most part, we atheists don't wander up into the christianity sub-forum. But as a believer, you're perfectly free to wander up into that echo chamber.
You know, folks, while I'm fine with puncturing bubbles, I would much rather discuss with amicable agreement, with my (our) understanding of what they believe and why, and their understanding of it being Faith and accepting that, and ceasing to batter us because we show that faith is not a sound reason..but it's Their reason.
If they just accepted that and our reasons for not accepting, we really could discuss amicably. But it is just too Personal for them. And there is the agenda. It really wouldn't hurt them if America was secular humanist and not allowing this mix of politics and religion. But they see the drive for a society Not dominated by religion as a threat. They cannot help but hate us.
If they could see that we are doing what is in their real interest - their religious freedom to choose just how much Christianity they do, and how much of it they believe (because the Ted Cruze Christian Sharya law would not give them the option) they would see that our interests are really the same.
But the prejudice is hard to break through - faith, fighting for their religion, and a hatred of the very name 'atheist'. It's hard to break. So we have to stick with trusting in the rise of irreligious, who may yet simply come to dominate and the prejudice will melt away.
Yes, it be very nice - for you - if all we pesky atheist went away and shut up and left you believers to wallow in your beliefs without anyone throwing spanners in the works.
But Ozzy, mate, spanners is what you badly need, and we are not going away, no matter how you might wish it. You are welcome to retire to Christianity Forum where we ungodly do not go, but it seems that you can't leave us alone. You have to keep stepping in and having a swipe at us.
So the Christianity forum is the only place for me to discuss SPIRITUALITY in a non-debate setting? Gee, that really makes sense.
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