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So all the evil in the world was and is done by god.
Thank you.
"Evil" is a subjective and arbitrary human construct.
Nothing is objectively "evil". Those doing such things may think it's the greatest thing to do...so, why isn't their assessment of it the one thats valid?
What is, just is. And it is always by and through God.
The subjective assessment of it by any individual or group of individuals has no real merit and counts for nothing.
Just as...my assessment of the assessment is subjective, and means squat...so.
Things just "are".
"Evil" is a subjective and arbitrary human construct.
Nothing is objectively "evil". Those doing such things may think it's the greatest thing to do...so, why isn't their assessment of it the one thats valid?
What is, just is. And it is always by and through God.
The subjective assessment of it by any individual or group of individuals has no real merit and counts for nothing.
Just as...my assessment of the assessment is subjective, and means squat...so.
Things just "are".
Bull toddy. You know the kind of things I'm talking about. But let's an American favorite -- slavery. According to you slavery was done by god. Shall I go down the list? Really, is disgraceful that people would worship a being that does such things.
As in, a prayer, should I quit this job and take that one?
OR, dear lord, please make that puppy I really want at the shelter still available!!! NO, and then next week it turns out your grandma dies and they need someone to take her beloved little dog, and there you are, with this fabulous little dog you are happy to have, and wouldn't have been able to do it if you'd adopted the puppy you so wanted. And you're able to do that for your grandma, who you so loved. It's better. Richer than you wanted before.
No, on the shelter puppy. Hang on a bit, wait for this blessing.
Like the song, Thank God for Unanswered Prayers. Christians say of that song - Thank God for sometimes getting a "no" on what you want right then.
And what of the puppy? Does it eventually get euthanized because no one adopted it? Were you the puppy's only chance?
This is one of those bizarre examples that has always baffled me. For instance, I was just watching a documentary earlier concerning the Battle of the Atlantic during WWII. A passanger on a ship that was sunk by a German U-boat was fretting because she couldn't find her husband. But ... it turned out that her husband was on the list of survivors; he had been picked up by a different rescue ship.
And because of that, the survivor said, she was "blessed by God."
Was she kidding? No, if someone were blessed by God, she wouldn't have been sailing on a ship that was eventually sunk in the first place.
Or, right after 9/11, the wife of one of the passangers on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania told the newspapers, "God meant for him to be on that plane" - to keep it from crashing into the White House or the Capitol building.
But ... but ... God certainly didn't seem to care if the planes crashed into the two towers or the Pentagon. God apparently didn't "place" anyone on those planes to stop the attacks.
In the same light, wouldn't it be better to just get the puppy at the shelter and not end up with a dead grandmother? To me, it's rather absurd to think that a blessing comes in the form of losing your grandmother just so you can end up with her dog. I'd rather have my grandmother, to be honest - but now your grandmother is dead and the shelter dog's future is now in question. Because of God's backhanded little blessing.
Yeah, I know people seem inclined to dig through piles of coal to find that tiny little diamond - and then perceive their entire reality based on the diamond. Never mind the massive piles of coal.
These are the people who will act giddy and excited because they found a quarter on the ground, ignoring the fact that the only reason why they found the quarter was because they broke down on the side of the road and are now facing an $800 repair bill that they can't afford.
What makes this all the more - weird, to put it mildly - is that quite often the good and bad are not even remotely equal to one another. Your example is a classic case in point - sure you get your grandmother's dog instead of the shelter dog, but now your grandmother is dead. Yet even when the bad substantially outweighs the good, people will still latch on to that one good thing - which is fine up to a point - but then they start talking about God. Why would anyone consider your grandmother dying a good thing sent by God?
Then again, considering the utterly depraved way God behaved all throughout the Bible, why not ascribe even the horrific things to God as well as the good things?
Personally I believe this mentality comes from the fact that many believers - mainly those who put a lot of stock in the Bible - are so used to creating strange rationales for the events in their lives because they've spent so much time coming up with even stranger rationales for how God can be an evil, genocidal tyrant while simultaneously being good, righteous, loving, and forgiving. With that kind of logic, I can almost - almost - see why people will equate horrendous tragedy with a blessing from God.
As if you do not just take what happens and read some question-begging "No God" plan into it using your euphemistic label "natural" that has no explanatory power.
Just what question am I 'begging', Mystic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Whatever happens (or has happened) anywhere, anytime...it is by and through God. No other way it can be.
I mean by "God" Nature, I agree. I just happen to call it "Nature".
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
So all the evil in the world was and is done by god.
Thank you.
Yes. That sorta flags up the Rhetorical trick that Mystic and Goldie are playing here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
"Evil" is a subjective and arbitrary human construct.
Nothing is objectively "evil". Those doing such things may think it's the greatest thing to do...so, why isn't their assessment of it the one thats valid?
What is, just is. And it is always by and through God.
The subjective assessment of it by any individual or group of individuals has no real merit and counts for nothing.
Just as...my assessment of the assessment is subjective, and means squat...so.
Things just "are".
Thank you. You are flagging up the Rhetorical trick You and Mystic are pulling, too. This is Nature (what happens without a cosmic mind being involved). 'Evil' is of course in the sense of human (relative) morality
Bull toddy. You know the kind of things I'm talking about. But let's an American favorite -- slavery. According to you slavery was done by god. Shall I go down the list? Really, is disgraceful that people would worship a being that does such things.
Many slavemasters probably thought slavery was just fine...and it was a good thing for them. There have even been wars fought over it.
It is a matter of perspective.
Just like some think that blowing up a whole town/city and everything/everyone in it is an "evil" thing. But slap the label "war" on it, and it is seen as a great thing to do, and those that do it are given commendations.
So...is blowing up people and things "evil", or isn't it?
"God" is not a "being", so to speak.
The ancients have written books that have "beings" as metaphorical and allegorical representative characters.
Some (many) mistake these allegorical characters as an actual literal description of "God". This is what causes most of the problems and resulting disagreements and disputes.
But the most crazy thing that occurs about it, is those that claim that there is no God...will then critique the actions and mindset of this being they claim to be nonexistent! That makes no sense, but it is very amusing...to me, anyway.
Bull toddy. You know the kind of things I'm talking about. But let's an American favorite -- slavery. According to you slavery was done by god. Shall I go down the list? Really, is disgraceful that people would worship a being that does such things.
Many slavemasters probably thought slavery was just fine...and it was a good thing for them. There have even been wars fought over it.
It is a matter of perspective.
Just like some think that blowing up a whole town/city and everything/everyone in it is an "evil" thing. But slap the label "war" on it, and it is seen as a great thing to do, and those that do it are given commendations.
So...is blowing up people and things "evil", or isn't it?
"God" is not a "being", so to speak.
The ancients have written books that have "beings" as metaphorical and allegorical representative characters.
Some (many) mistake these allegorical characters as an actual literal description of "God". This is what causes most of the problems and resulting disagreements and disputes.
But the most crazy thing that occurs about it, is those that claim that there is no God...will then critique the actions and mindset of this being they claim to be nonexistent! That makes no sense, but it is very amusing...to me, anyway.
The ludicrous laugh at what they fail to understand. You fail to understand that a relative morality is...relative. It Evolves. Slavery was once ok - noiw it isn't. Women were inferior, now they aren't. Same -sex was wrong. Now it isn't. Although Some Religious still try to turn the clock back, as they would with women, and slavery if they had the power they crave.
You also display lack of understanding of the problem of evil. It doesn't argue that God is evil, but that 'evil' makes more sense if a 'Just' god doesn't exist. As usual, I wonder whether you are not actually smarter than this and you just argue this nonsense to wind atheists up.
The ludicrous laugh at what they fail to understand. You fail to understand that a relative morality is...relative. It Evolves. Slavery was once ok - noiw it isn't. Women were inferior, now they aren't. Same -sex was wrong. Now it isn't. Although Some Religious still try to turn the clock back, as they would with women, and slavery if they had the power they crave.
You also display lack of understanding of the problem of evil. It doesn't argue that God is evil, but that 'evil' makes more sense if a 'Just' god doesn't exist. As usual, I wonder whether you are not actually smarter than this and you just argue this nonsense to wind atheists up.
Right..."Relative Morality" = "No Objectively Existing Morality"
Nothing is objectively "moral" or "immoral"...it is all subjective and arbitrary.
There is no objective "evil" or "good"...just the subjective perception by people or groups of people that something is "evil" or "good".
I am not "winding up" anyone with this...it is just how it is.
I accept that your post was intended seriously, and it's a fair question. But the fact is that morality, based on the only 'objective' part - what benefits humanity - is evolved and agreed, even if it has regional variants, and not everybody keeps to it.
It is the only morality we have, imperfect as it is and - I argue - is what Christians apply to the Bible, whenever they 'judge' an action of God's too bad to be presented as justified, and they have to blame it on someone else.
Many slavemasters probably thought slavery was just fine...and it was a good thing for them. There have even been wars fought over it.
It is a matter of perspective.
Just like some think that blowing up a whole town/city and everything/everyone in it is an "evil" thing. But slap the label "war" on it, and it is seen as a great thing to do, and those that do it are given commendations.
So...is blowing up people and things "evil", or isn't it?
"God" is not a "being", so to speak.
The ancients have written books that have "beings" as metaphorical and allegorical representative characters.
Some (many) mistake these allegorical characters as an actual literal description of "God". This is what causes most of the problems and resulting disagreements and disputes.
But the most crazy thing that occurs about it, is those that claim that there is no God...will then critique the actions and mindset of this being they claim to be nonexistent! That makes no sense, but it is very amusing...to me, anyway.
Let's stick to the actual point of the conversation...which was this quote of yours: "Whatever happens (or has happened) anywhere, anytime...it is by and through God. No other way it can be."
Fine, all the bad things in the world are the result of god. Period. That's what you're preaching.
We can take the big terrible things in the world -- slavery, the Holocaust, etc. ... god done it.
We can take all the atheists on this forum -- god made us that way.
By the way. Slavery is not a "matter of perspective". Or are you actually saying that slavery can be good?
P.S. -- If I want to him a "being", I'll call him a "being".
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