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Let's stick to the actual point of the conversation...which was this quote of yours: "Whatever happens (or has happened) anywhere, anytime...it is by and through God. No other way it can be."
Fine, all the bad things in the world are the result of god. Period. That's what you're preaching.
We can take the big terrible things in the world -- slavery, the Holocaust, etc. ... god done it.
We can take all the atheists on this forum -- god made us that way.
By the way. Slavery is not a "matter of perspective". Or are you actually saying that slavery can be good?
P.S. -- If I want to him a "being", I'll call him a "being".
I am saying that nothing is "good" or "bad"...those are human constructs.
The human doing whatever to enhance their existence and chance for survival is no more "bad" or "good" than the hawk that swoops down on the baby bunny, or the lions that jump on the wildebeest that is stuck in the mud pit, and start eating it alive.
You are doing the same thing the Religious do, and determining things to be "wrong" (some Religious call it "sin")...simply on the basis that you are of the subjective opinion that it is.
You subjectively determining certain conduct or acts to be "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil", does not make it so.
By that logic...certain sexual acts are "wrong" and "evil" because many religious think they are.
Everything does and has occurred by and through God...and it all just is. God does not do things that are "good", or things that are "bad"...because, objectively, there is no such thing.
You *can* call God a "being" (or a "him")...but, it would then be upon you to prove such a being objectively exists.
Otherwise...to note, critique, or assess the actions and mindset of said "being" would be irrational and illogical...since nonexistent beings do not do or think anything to assess.
I am saying that nothing is "good" or "bad"...those are human constructs.
The human doing whatever to enhance their existence and chance for survival is no more "bad" or "good" than the hawk that swoops down on the baby bunny, or the lions that jump on the wildebeest that is stuck in the mud pit, and start eating it alive.
You are doing the same thing the Religious do, and determining things to be "wrong" (some Religious call it "sin")...simply on the basis that you are of the subjective opinion that it is.
You subjectively determining certain conduct or acts to be "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil", does not make it so.
By that logic...certain sexual acts are "wrong" and "evil" because many religious think they are.
Everything does and has occurred by and through God...and it all just is. God does not do things that are "good", or things that are "bad"...because, objectively, there is no such thing.
You *can* call God a "being" (or a "him")...but, it would then be upon you to prove such a being objectively exists.
Otherwise...to note, critique, or assess the actions and mindset of said "being" would be irrational and illogical...since nonexistent beings do not do or think anything to assess.
Your viewpoint is a recipe for immorality.
GldnRule -- you don't think there is anything wrong with slavery. That is a lack of morality.
Edit -- I take that back...not immoral, amoral. Or to use a synonym -- unprincipled.
GldnRule -- you don't think there is anything wrong with slavery. That is a lack of morality.
Edit -- I take that back...not immoral, amoral. Or to use a synonym -- unprincipled.
You sound like the Religious that say, "You don't find anything wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex. That is a lack of morality."
Just as...there are hundreds of millions that would celebrate a 50 year old man marrying a 13 year old girl, and think it is a wonderful thing. And there are hundreds of millions that would view it as the height of evil and a horrible thing.
Who has the valid view?
I am saying that nothing is "good" or "bad"...those are human constructs.
The human doing whatever to enhance their existence and chance for survival is no more "bad" or "good" than the hawk that swoops down on the baby bunny, or the lions that jump on the wildebeest that is stuck in the mud pit, and start eating it alive.
You are doing the same thing the Religious do, and determining things to be "wrong" (some Religious call it "sin")...simply on the basis that you are of the subjective opinion that it is.
You subjectively determining certain conduct or acts to be "right" or "wrong", "good" or "evil", does not make it so.
By that logic...certain sexual acts are "wrong" and "evil" because many religious think they are.
Everything does and has occurred by and through God...and it all just is. God does not do things that are "good", or things that are "bad"...because, objectively, there is no such thing.
You *can* call God a "being" (or a "him")...but, it would then be upon you to prove such a being objectively exists.
Otherwise...to note, critique, or assess the actions and mindset of said "being" would be irrational and illogical...since nonexistent beings do not do or think anything to assess.
Of course it is a human construct - but based on something as objective as can be - the best thing for humanity. While it is not perfect and people don't always follow it, it is far from the mere following of instinct like a hawk providing its' family with food (to take another view of your childishly emotive 'baby bunny' example).
And certain sexual acts being wrong because the religious say so is missing the point entirely. It is ignoring everything about evidence, ethics and reason, because trying to prevent other people doing other things - where reason tells us there is no harm being done, because someone else disapproves -not because of personal reasons, but because an old book says so - shows up that your logical processes are badly impaired. Just as in your argument (as I understand it) that, because of Human morals (which you pretend makes nothing either good or bad), then, what God (in the Bible - hell - in the world he is supposed to manage) allows to happen that human ethics calls 'evil' is ok even when judged by the system of morals He supposedly gave us. You seriously can't see this? Or is it another wind -up?
And your final piece of either illogic or wind -up (and it is so logically flawed that I wouldn't like to bet which it is) is answered by:
Either god is a being - a forward planning intelligence (apart from our own, of course)
Or it is Just 'Nature'.
If the latter - you can call it a set of bagpipes if you wish. 'Nature' is the term everyone else with their head on straight will use.
If however, you say that it is the former - it's for YOU to show that it exists - not us. We are making no claim, I am just saying that it is either one (in which case it is God) or the other, (in which case it is 'nature') - in any sense that anyone else with a full bag of marbles, is going to accept.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-12-2019 at 01:43 PM..
GldnRule -- you don't think there is anything wrong with slavery. That is a lack of morality.
Edit -- I take that back...not immoral, amoral. Or to use a synonym -- unprincipled.
You sound like the Religious that say, "You don't find anything wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex. That is a lack of morality."
Just as...there are hundreds of millions that would celebrate a 50 year old man marrying a 13 year old girl, and think it is a wonderful thing. And there are hundreds of millions that would view it as the height of evil and a horrible thing.
Who has the valid view?
You sound like the Religious that say, "You don't find anything wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex. That is a lack of morality."
Just as...there are hundreds of millions that would celebrate a 50 year old man marrying a 13 year old girl, and think it is a wonderful thing. And there are hundreds of millions that would view it as the height of evil and a horrible thing.
Who has the valid view?
The ones supporting consentual sex. The current state of of that morality (and the law) says a 13 year old is not mature enough to make a mature and informed choice. You seem unable to get your head around the basic point of morality - the rights of people, and protecting them.
You sound like the Religious that say, "You don't find anything wrong with homosexuality or premarital sex. That is a lack of morality."
Just as...there are hundreds of millions that would celebrate a 50 year old man marrying a 13 year old girl, and think it is a wonderful thing. And there are hundreds of millions that would view it as the height of evil and a horrible thing.
Who has the valid view?
You are the first person I've personally encountered who does not say that slavery was wrong. Be proud.
Of course it is a human construct - but based on something as objective as can be - the best thing for humanity. While it is not perfect and people don't always follow it, it is far from the mere following of instinct like a hawk providing its' family with food (to take another view of your childishly emotive 'baby bunny' example).
And certain sexual acts being wrong because the religious say so is missing the point entirely. It is ignoring everything about evidence, ethics and reason, because trying to prevent other people doing other things - where reason tells us there is no harm being done, because someone else disapproves -not because of personal reasons, but because an old book says so - shows up that your logical processes are badly impaired. Just as in your argument (as I understand it) that, because of Human morals (which you pretend makes nothing either good or bad), then, what God (in the Bible - hell - in the world he is supposed to manage) allows to happen that human ethics calls 'evil' is ok even when judged by the system of morals He supposedly gave us. You seriously can't see this? Or is it another wind -up?
And your final piece of either illogic or wind -up (and it is so logically flawed that I wouldn't like to bet which it is) is answered by:
Either god is a being - a forward planning intelligence (apart from our own, of course)
Or it is Just 'Nature'.
If the latter - you can call it a set of bagpipes if you wish. 'Nature' is the term everyone else with their head on straight will use.
If however, you say that it is the former - it's for YOU to show that it exists - not us. We are making no claim, I am just saying that it is either one (in which case it is God) or the other, (in which case it is 'nature') - in any sense that anyone else with a full bag of marbles, is going to accept.
Many, many argue that certain sexual acts and concepts are harmful to people and society...and not just, "because an old book says so".
Is that valid? They show statistics for diseases and suicide, etc...does that "prove" the harm they claim?
I am of the view that the Religious Deities do not objectively exist...so, logically, I do not consider what "he" gave us or allows...as nonexistent entities do not give or allow anything.
You know of my Pantheist view of God...discussion of the details of that was declared to be proscribed...so.
The ones supporting consentual sex. The current state of of that morality (and the law) says a 13 year old is not mature enough to make a mature and informed choice. You seem unable to get your head around the basic point of morality - the rights of people, and protecting them.
Morality and the law for hundreds of millions say the 13 year old is plenty mature enough.
Why would your morality and law objectively be more valid?
You are the first person I've personally encountered who does not say that slavery was wrong. Be proud.
I never said what my personal opinion on it was. I just stated how it really is from a logical standpoint that is free from personal preferences and emotions.
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