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So you would have created robots and clones? Why is God immoral for giving us life yet it is perfectly acceptable for millions of humans to have children fully knowing they are bringing a child into this world of pain?
Kinda makes me think of that movie, The Truman Show. It would seem immoral for people to keep Truman in this perfect fishbowl world and not let him know that there is another world out there. A world with many dangers.
God gave man a choice. Stay in the perfect fishbowl world or go against His direction and take that doorway that leads to knowledge that evil and death exists. It's kinda hypocritical that parents don't keep their children locked at home away from dangers wrapped in bubble wrap. They let their child make their own choices and find their own path. Why is that ok and it is wrong for God to present a choice for man?
You seriously don’t see that a perfect fishbowl life is the life of a robot jeffbase?
Jeff, why should someone have to answer a question for which the answer is so painfully obvious? Who has the greater knowledge, the greater power, and ultimately the greater responsibility here, God or humans? Who made us and instilled in us the weaknesses we possess? Who takes full responsibility for how the universe and everything in it is governed? At whose desk does the buck stop? So why should God be absolved of all culpability for a sinful world He created merely by saying, "I gave you free will so that gets me off the hook for any blame for the way the world operates?
Why are you Christians constantly trying to whitewash God of any liability for all the evil in the world and throw it on the backs of weak, dumb ignorant humans when God plainly states in His holy Bible, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah35:7
This is why "free will" and "original sin" was invented by the church: just another way to con men into believing THEY'RE the ones who have to take it in the neck for God's screw-ups. The churchmen are constantly drumming into our minds how filthy and no-good we are so that we will have to come crawling to the churchmen begging them to intervene before God on our behalf.
This is all so diabolical I cannot begin to fathom intelligent people falling for this ruse but you are in-our-face evidence people do fall for it.
This is actually the best response to this general question that I've seen. I particularly like and agree with the issue of "responsibility" which you bring up. I have never understood why so many christians have no problems excusing god from any responsibility for anything that is less than perfect, but shame humans who are less than perfect...and your quote from Isaiah certainly makes that responsibility clear (although I think it's 45:7).
This is actually the best response to this general question that I've seen. I particularly like and agree with the issue of "responsibility" which you bring up. I have never understood why so many christians have no problems excusing god from any responsibility for anything that is less than perfect, but shame humans who are less than perfect...and your quote from Isaiah certainly makes that responsibility clear (although I think it's 45:7).
But, there is way more at play in this creation...if I only looked here to the physical, I could think the same thing, so I understand the thinking: 'This Creator is pretty awful.'
And especially the BIBLE stories are Bizarro!!!
Digging deeper for 5 decades...I 'get' the whole deal...why we were created, what this Cosmic Dance is all about, this Stage we are on, the Maya, this Illusion of smoke and mirrors...our many costume changes...it's quite brilliant...as in, Genius.
But the understanding comes from an ethereal or right brain place...when the Doors of Perception are opened...usually suddenly and unexpectedly
Jeff, why should someone have to answer a question for which the answer is so painfully obvious? Who has the greater knowledge, the greater power, and ultimately the greater responsibility here, God or humans? Who made us and instilled in us the weaknesses we possess? Who takes full responsibility for how the universe and everything in it is governed? At whose desk does the buck stop? So why should God be absolved of all culpability for a sinful world He created merely by saying, "I gave you free will so that gets me off the hook for any blame for the way the world operates?
Why are you Christians constantly trying to whitewash God of any liability for all the evil in the world and throw it on the backs of weak, dumb ignorant humans when God plainly states in His holy Bible, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah35:7
This is why "free will" and "original sin" was invented by the church: just another way to con men into believing THEY'RE the ones who have to take it in the neck for God's screw-ups. The churchmen are constantly drumming into our minds how filthy and no-good we are so that we will have to come crawling to the churchmen begging them to intervene before God on our behalf.
This is all so diabolical I cannot begin to fathom intelligent people falling for this ruse but you are in-our-face evidence people do fall for it.
I never understood how people believed people that told them that a god thing made them "sinners". If a god thing made them, it made them as good as it could. I saw that at like 9.
I don't think it was sticking their necks out tho. Not a 100%. I think it was an accountability issue. some people have the sick sense that no free will means no accountability or consequences ... like being put in prison for life because one couldn't be any other way.
so I think it was, in part, a nonsensical solution to insanity.
This is actually the best response to this general question that I've seen. I particularly like and agree with the issue of "responsibility" which you bring up. I have never understood why so many christians have no problems excusing god from any responsibility for anything that is less than perfect, but shame humans who are less than perfect...and your quote from Isaiah certainly makes that responsibility clear (although I think it's 45:7).
Thank you much, phetaroi. Yes, that's a typo on the Isaiah. I am constantly astonished by how brainwashed Christians have been made to feel like the scum of the earth--wallowing in mud and filth and not capable of doing a single good thing because they need Jesus to do it for them. Except in reality Jesus doesn't do squat for them except in their head. Does he get them out of prison? Get them out of debt? Find them a job? Put food on the table? Get them a place to live when they're homeless on the street? Cure their sick child of cancer????????
Here's the opening lyric to a typical Christian song: "My sin remained a dirty stain my good could not erase." It all stems back to that idiotic line out of Isaiah, "All our righteousness are as filthy rags before the Lord". And ever since, the churchmen have lied and distorted the truth to keep men on bent knee before God--and by extension to them, which is the only thing that is really important to them. Because that's how they shame and guilt men into bowing to them as emissaries of God and giving all their money to the church. Now people are starting to wake up and say, "Wait a second. Am I really all that filthy? Why does a God who can make all the money He could ever want need MY paltry few dollars that I use to pay my electricity??"
This awakening on the part of the people--thanks largely to the Internet--has the church leadership trembling and quaking in their boots. They begin to see reality as it really is: they have no training or job skills in any real work, apart from being able to lead a congregation in prayer and asking for donations; they see themselves standing in bread lines along with their wife and 7 kids when their tiny church finally folds and shutters its doors. And trust me, you won't see Jesus within 10 miles of him when the stuff hits the fan.
I've heard ridiculous stories of Christians--a lot of them newly converted and green as grass handing over their entire paycheck because some slick preacher assured them "God will reward your fiscal faithfulness by returning a thousand-fold the $500 or $1000 you give to my ministry. For your convenience we take Mastercard and Visa. The phone number is on your screen. Go to the phones now and pledge! Hallelujah!" Watch Rod Parsley's propaganda film. Probably cost him a $100,000 to hire the actors and cameraman. But he probably made 50 million on this junk from gullible Christians. I like how someone in the comment section put it: "You just can't fix stupid."
I wonder if it is only in the Bible that it says humans are born sinners?
*Only reference in the Gita when I googled was Krishna addressing Arjuna as
"Oh sinless Arjuna..." Chapter 3 (And he was nothing special, just a man.)
*Ah, well looky here, googled Koran stuff:
"...a sign outside a Toronto mosque bore this message: "Everyone welcome and no one told he is a sinner." Islam's view of sin explains why many Muslims reject
the Christian doctrine of atonement."
I wonder if it is only in the Bible that it says humans are born sinners?
*Only reference in the Gita when I googled was Krishna addressing Arjuna as
"Oh sinless Arjuna..." Chapter 3 (And he was nothing special, just a man.)
*Ah, well looky here, googled Koran stuff:
"...a sign outside a Toronto mosque bore this message: "Everyone welcome and no one told he is a sinner." Islam's view of sin explains why many Muslims reject the Christian doctrine of atonement."
Everyone seems to get it, everyone, that is except American Christians. Why? Because American scam artist "men of God" have figured out how powerful a tool guilt-tripping a person is for making money, and it seems it only workson Americans--figure that one out! Thank you for that input, Miss H.
You are born a sinner because of original sin. You are filthy. You can do no good because with the free will God gave you you elect to do only evil. You need a savior. God is pure and righteous and just. He cannot look at sin. He cannot look at you because of your filth. He will send you to hell for eternity because of your filth. You need a pair of glasses God can look through to see you without your sin. Jesus is your pair of glasses--"the power of the cross of Christ; the blood of Jesus Christ, salvation by the Lamb and His healing and delivering power with tens of thousands being supernaturally changed forever by the power of Jesus, our risen Lord and Savior."
These glasses are advertised as a free gift but in reality they are anything but free. They cost you your money, your autonomy, your sense of worth, and finally your freedom to live life as you'd like to live it--because you turn all that over to Jesus when you accept him. But because Jesus doesn't say word one to you, you must go through your minister to know what God wants you to do.
This is like writing out a check for your entire bank account and leaving the "Pay To" completely blank. Why do Americans do this? Because as a nation we have one of the lowest IQ's out there, and low IQ always equates with susceptibility to being led; actually more than that: the NEED to be led.
Take my word, if you're out there screaming, "I don't know what to do! I need someone to guide me!" there is ALWAYS going to be a con artist standing nearby who will only be too happy to lead you...BUT ONLY if you turn over your bank account number and Power of Attorney to him.
I wonder if it is only in the Bible that it says humans are born sinners?
You can also do a search for ancestral guilt or sins of the father. There are some examples in Greek mythology as well Eastern philosophies that teach reincarnation.
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Yes, that's a typo on the Isaiah. I am constantly astonished by how brainwashed Christians have been made to feel like the scum of the earth--wallowing in mud and filth and not capable of doing a single good thing because they need Jesus to do it for them. Except in reality Jesus doesn't do squat for them except in their head. Does he get them out of prison? Get them out of debt? Find them a job? Put food on the table? Get them a place to live when they're homeless on the street? Cure their sick child of cancer????????
