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I thought that was Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours in 732. Only thing I remember from History 101.
Likewise, I am dumbfounded by people like you that can’t see the evidence for Christianity, right in front of your face! It’s played out in front of us every day.
Likewise, I am dumbfounded by people like you that can’t see the evidence for Christianity, right in front of your face! It’s played out in front of us every day.
In fact it isn't, it's played out in your own head and you think it must be played out in ours, too.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
You are changing the subject!
Am i? What was the subject again?
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Here, you are clearly saying Christians do nothing to help our fellow-man. Motivation is not the issue.
No, you are missing the point. The Christian doctrine or habit, perhaps, of thinking that praying to put things right or (when it doesn't happen) assuring us that Jesus will sort it all out eventually, prevents the impetus to make things better ourselves, because we (secularists) don't think that anyone else will.
When Christians actually do try to do good, why, then do they do it?
(x)For the same reason atheists do,
(y)for publicity or recruitment purposes or because (doctrine aside (1) they feel that it will please God and assure them getting into heaven. Thus it is not altruism and they deserve no credit for doing it.
(1) rather as there is a dichotomy between the belief in a Last trump judgement or one immediately upon death) there is the conflicting ideas that God is pleased by good deeds or doesn't care about them. I can guess why on both doctrinal and social bases, but we needn't go into that right now.
I've been watching this thread for several days wondering when somebody was going to remember that the thread was about evidence OUTSIDE of the Bible. Subject of the thread: Debate: Remove the Bible And What Evidence Is Left For Jesus' Resurrection
With that title, why do people keep mentioning the Bible?
Because it's obvious. The OP never intended on actually discussing real proofs. It's to crap on the Bible. Any fool can plainly see that.
Because it's obvious. The OP never intended on actually discussing real proofs. It's to crap on the Bible. Any fool can plainly see that.
Of course, because every day is crap on the Bible day. Because it's all part of countering the 'Base American society on the Bible' campaign and rightly so, and that's done by the Proofs that it is so much crap. It's what the debate is about (or is since atheists won dominance in R/S). Join in or get out, but stop whining about it.
The Bible was supposed to be taken out of the question.
So, other than that, please provide some "real proofs"
I did. The historical fact of the Christian faith exploding around 30 AD, and a church forming. That is undeniable. The martyrs that died willingly because of what they saw, not just what they heard or believed.
Good points. But it seems to me that Paul's letters weren't known until quite late, since only Luke seems to incorporate them into his gospel, and bases Acts (loosely) on them. Indeed Matthew and John have the disciples going back to Galilee after the resurrection but Luke knows that Paul's letters show that they stayed in Jerusalem as founders of the Jesus party, Saints, 'Elect', Nazorenes or 'The Meek'.
Unfortunately we can not discuss the Bible in a thread about removing the Bible as evidence, so I would need to point out how Mark is Pauline in another thread.
In fact it isn't, it's played out in your own head and you think it must be played out in ours, too.
Am i? What was the subject again?
No, you are missing the point. The Christian doctrine or habit, perhaps, of thinking that praying to put things right or (when it doesn't happen) assuring us that Jesus will sort it all out eventually, prevents the impetus to make things better ourselves, because we (secularists) don't think that anyone else will.
When Christians actually do try to do good, why, then do they do it?
(x)For the same reason atheists do,
(y)for publicity or recruitment purposes or because (doctrine aside (1) they feel that it will please God and assure them getting into heaven. Thus it is not altruism and they deserve no credit for doing it.
(1) rather as there is a dichotomy between the belief in a Last trump judgement or one immediately upon death) there is the conflicting ideas that God is pleased by good deeds or doesn't care about them. I can guess why on both doctrinal and social bases, but we needn't go into that right now.
P.s Have a nice day.
You’re moving the goalposts because you know you misspoke about Christian charity.
I did. The historical fact of the Christian faith exploding around 30 AD, and a church forming. That is undeniable.
We have no evidence the faith did explode. In fact according to Pliny the Younger, Christianity, at least in NW Turkey was dying out. The Christian faith had 'exploded' so much , Pliny, one of the most powerful students of history and geography knew nothing about it.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
The martyrs that died willingly because of what they saw, not just what they heard or believed.
For which you have provided NO evidence, with or without the Bible. Not one account has an alleged eyewitness dying for their beliefs.
I did. The historical fact of the Christian faith exploding around 30 AD, and a church forming. That is undeniable.
...but it didn't explode then. In fact, it didn't 'explode' until Constantine made it legal and then Theodosius I made it the official religion of the Empire in 380CE.Had it not been for those two 4th century events, Christianity would have died as it it had lived until then, an obscure blood sect.
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The martyrs that died willingly because of what they saw, not just what they heard or believed.
Absolutely no evidence whatsoever that such people even existed never mind that they died as martyrs. Further, people dying for what they believe does not make the belief true...or do you actually thing that David Koresh was Jesus returned? How many times have you had this explained to you now?
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I mean how does such denial and naïveté exist among Christians? I realize much of this is pure psychological defense mechanisms--the inability to cope with truth when it is staring you right in the eyes. Still....
Only thing I remember from History 101.
Of course, because every day is crap on the Bible day. Because it's all part of countering the 'Base American society on the Bible' campaign and rightly so, and that's done by the Proofs that it is so much crap. It's what the debate is about (or is since atheists won dominance in R/S). Join in or get out, but stop whining about it.
, Pliny, one of the most powerful students of history and geography knew nothing about it.
