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Then your claim that God intervenes and alters outcomes of humans on Earth is simply a belief and not universally the truth. It is only true to you.
These are simply excuses. The fact that Christianity is not the SOLE Dominant religion in the world and the dominant religion in some of the biggest populations is evidence that Christianity is not the true religion and this simply shows that belief in religion is mainly based on culture and where you are born.
If God does not know your fate after you die then he simply is not all knowing.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None of the points you made are actual evidence and merely just assumptions and speculation
1. Terrible evidence. When writing a book after the fact, it is easy to portray the main character as predicting future events.
2. Testimony from the bible is not evidence. The bible has already been shown to have many contradictions, errors, alterations, and retractions. Additionally, Mark’s Gospel was the first New Testament gospel to be written and is now dated securely to around 70 CE, some forty years after the crucifixion and resurrection were supposed to have taken place.
3. No, these documents were penned a generation after the eyewitness accounts. As we know eyewitness accounts are very unreliable. Paul states quite clearly that this is what he was told, but he does not say who told him or how reliable his source was (1Corinthians 15:3)
4. Read each Gospel. There are contradictions on who found Jesus tomb empty. This point is not even evidence for a resurrection.
5.What does the apostles way of death have to do with evidence of a resurrection? This is a logical fallacy.
Please come forth with better evidence.
God is slow to anger and slow to take action? That describes a God that is not All Powerful. An all powerful God would have the ability to end evil and suffering instantly. Why would an all powerful God just take his sweet time? Does he take some kind of pleasure in watching his followers suffer?
Christianity makes no logical sense to me. If you want to keep believing that there is a God that can hear you and has the afterlife ready for you because you believe than so be it, but the mistakes that many Christians make is believing that their religion is the absolute truth and that there is evidence for all the miracles in the bible.
So you do believe the Adam and Eve story to be literal?
Good post. It comes down to the same old thing -- a confusion on the part of many christians about the difference between faith and fact.
Good post. It comes down to the same old thing -- a confusion on the part of many christians about the difference between faith and fact.
Yes. Mink mentioned the well -known 'evidence' for the reliability of the Bible. It is well known that this is 'evidence' for Christianity, but the point is that it is far from Good evidence. Prophecy - to take one example - is faked, being either quotemining the OT to fit the Jesus -story or adding to the Jesus -story to fit the OT.
Test -cases are the massacre of innocents (an unhistorical mechanism to dislodge Joseph from Bethlehem and relocate him to Nazareth) with a really irrelevant OT quote or two to fit it. The 'Immanuel' quote (Jesus was never called Immanuel; it refers at best to the evolution of Jesus from Messiah to God incarnated) and the 'virgin' misreading of Isaiah.
There is the mangling of OT to fit the death of Judas in Acts 1 (evidently the work of Luke) and Matthew, which accounts contradict, just as they do over the nativity.
There is the link of Psalms with the leg -breaking and spear -thrust: a very popular 'prophecy'. I suspect that this is John inventing wholesale, as I believe he does with Lazarus and the plotting of Caiaphas, with another absurd 'prophecy' (Jesus should 'die for the people') and I argue that Luke contradicts John over the spear wound in the side, and the whole 'Thomas' episode.
That's just salient examples of why prophecy is no good evidence for the gospel account of Jesus.
Then your claim that God intervenes and alters outcomes of humans on Earth is simply a belief and not universally the truth. It is only true to you.
Well...it's not only true to *me*. Out of 7.5 billion people on this planet, I'm sure it's true for a "few" more than just me...
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These are simply excuses. The fact that Christianity is not the SOLE Dominant religion in the world and the dominant religion in some of the biggest populations is evidence that Christianity is not the true religion and this simply shows that belief in religion is mainly based on culture and where you are born.
Just because EVERYONE or even ALMOST EVERYONE doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean it isn't true. And the "logic" isn't only applied to religious beliefs.
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If God does not know your fate after you die then he simply is not all knowing.
Who said He doesn't? I didn't. God knows what our fate is because of how well He knows us. He's not causing us to do these things. He knows us so well that He can predict our future and never be wrong about it.
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None of the points you made are actual evidence and merely just assumptions and speculation
1. Terrible evidence. When writing a book after the fact, it is easy to portray the main character as predicting future events.
2. Testimony from the bible is not evidence. The bible has already been shown to have many contradictions, errors, alterations, and retractions. Additionally, Mark’s Gospel was the first New Testament gospel to be written and is now dated securely to around 70 CE, some forty years after the crucifixion and resurrection were supposed to have taken place.
3. No, these documents were penned a generation after the eyewitness accounts. As we know eyewitness accounts are very unreliable. Paul states quite clearly that this is what he was told, but he does not say who told him or how reliable his source was (1Corinthians 15:3)
4. Read each Gospel. There are contradictions on who found Jesus tomb empty. This point is not even evidence for a resurrection.
5.What does the apostles way of death have to do with evidence of a resurrection? This is a logical fallacy.
Please come forth with better evidence.
Saying that it's "terrible" evidence is simply an opinion. Just as it's easy to portray the main character as predicting future events, it can take the same effort NOT to. It's easy to lie. It's just as easy NOT to lie.
Testimony from the bible IS evidence. Virtually ALL of those so-called "errors, contradictions, etc." are not errors/contradictions at all.
Even if Mark was written around 70 CE,...so what? The passage of time doesn't automatically negate facts.
Eyewitness testimony isn't always perfect, but just because it's not perfect doesn't automatically make it "unreliable".
I have read each Gospel a number of times. What you say is a contradiction, others say is simply a different point of view. That is, a different vantage point.
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God is slow to anger and slow to take action? That describes a God that is not All Powerful. An all powerful God would have the ability to end evil and suffering instantly. Why would an all powerful God just take his sweet time? Does he take some kind of pleasure in watching his followers suffer?
A God being slow to anger and take action isn't evidence of a God who isn't all powerful; It shows me He's a God who is patient. He's a strategist.
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Christianity makes no logical sense to me. If you want to keep believing that there is a God that can hear you and has the afterlife ready for you because you believe than so be it, but the mistakes that many Christians make is believing that their religion is the absolute truth and that there is evidence for all the miracles in the bible.
I don't say that my religion is the absolute truth, but I see a lot more truth in it than other religions.
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So you do believe the Adam and Eve story to be literal?
Just because EVERYONE or even ALMOST EVERYONE doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean it isn't true. And the "logic" isn't only applied to religious beliefs.
...
Saying that it's "terrible" evidence is simply an opinion. Just as it's easy to portray the main character as predicting future events, it can take the same effort NOT to. It's easy to lie. It's just as easy NOT to lie.
Testimony from the bible IS evidence. Virtually ALL of those so-called "errors, contradictions, etc." are not errors/contradictions at all.
Even if Mark was written around 70 CE,...so what? The passage of time doesn't automatically negate facts.
Eyewitness testimony isn't always perfect, but just because it's not perfect doesn't automatically make it "unreliable".
...
I don't say that my religion is the absolute truth, but I see a lot more truth in it than other religions.
...
You christians can't play the numbers game both ways. Some days many of you cite christianity being true because look, there are more christians than any other religion. Then other days you try to play the other side of the coin. Very disingenuous.
Why is that something someone else believes that is in opposition to your belief it is "simply opinion". But when it's your belief it's "evidence"?
If it's not perfect, it's somewhat unreliable.
What is the depth of your investigation of Buddhism? Hinduism? Other specific religions.
Well...it's not only true to *me*. Out of 7.5 billion people on this planet, I'm sure it's true for a "few" more than just me...
Just because EVERYONE or even ALMOST EVERYONE doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean it isn't true. And the "logic" isn't only applied to religious beliefs.
Who said He doesn't? I didn't. God knows what our fate is because of how well He knows us. He's not causing us to do these things. He knows us so well that He can predict our future and never be wrong about it.
Saying that it's "terrible" evidence is simply an opinion. Just as it's easy to portray the main character as predicting future events, it can take the same effort NOT to. It's easy to lie. It's just as easy NOT to lie.
Testimony from the bible IS evidence. Virtually ALL of those so-called "errors, contradictions, etc." are not errors/contradictions at all.
Even if Mark was written around 70 CE,...so what? The passage of time doesn't automatically negate facts.
Eyewitness testimony isn't always perfect, but just because it's not perfect doesn't automatically make it "unreliable".
I have read each Gospel a number of times. What you say is a contradiction, others say is simply a different point of view. That is, a different vantage point.
A God being slow to anger and take action isn't evidence of a God who isn't all powerful; It shows me He's a God who is patient. He's a strategist.
I don't say that my religion is the absolute truth, but I see a lot more truth in it than other religions.
Yes. And, no.
As usual Diesel, you want to take this chunk of faithbased denial or shall I?
Your case, Minky, is (a) based on the 'evidence' that is actually unsound, but of course you deny the debunks. I've heard them all, but the big ones, the test cases, like 'No transfiguration in John', the attempted murder that only Luke knows of, and the resurrection and nativity -accounts can't be explained away, other than by denial.
and (b) excuses. the 'patient' god, is only the 'prayer doesn't work' argument. It does work - as much as it would 'work' if you prayed to your cat. It is denial. And denial is founded in the basic fallacy of Theism: the faith-claim of God (you dismissed all the Others easily enough) is to be taken as true until disproved 100%. An of course faith -based denial of even 100% lockdown evidence leaves you with the win
This is why where the burden of proof lies is an absolute basic battle between the theist case and the atheist. It is why atheism has to be made a claim of No God, because that means that we have the burden of proof.
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Originally Posted by phetaroi
You christians can't play the numbers game both ways. Some days many of you cite christianity being true because look, there are more christians than any other religion. Then other days you try to play the other side of the coin. Very disingenuous.
Why is that something someone else believes that is in opposition to your belief it is "simply opinion". But when it's your belief it's "evidence"?
If it's not perfect, it's somewhat unreliable.
What is the depth of your investigation of Buddhism? Hinduism? Other specific religions.
A Jedi wave and not much more, or so I'd suspect.
I loved the 'No' and 'Yes'. It's not true where it looks so ridiculous as to discredit the person who says it's true. It's true in all other respects.
This plays into the metaphorically true excuse. That can mean either a symbolically true story or one that can be Interpreted to be a loosely connected actual event.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-13-2020 at 06:53 AM..
You christians can't play the numbers game both ways. Some days many of you cite christianity being true because look, there are more christians than any other religion. Then other days you try to play the other side of the coin. Very disingenuous.
I don't believe that I've EVER addressed the idea that Christianity is "true" because there are more Christians than any other religion". To me, that's not even an argument.
Some Christians may believe that and others won't.
This same 'logic' can work in non-religious settings, such as, a court of law. A unanimous vote of 'guilty' between jurors does NOT mean that the plaintiff IS guilty, regardless of what the 'evidence' says. The Innocence Project has proven that. The same holds true for a NOT guilty verdict.
Big numbers often mean squat.
I understand that about 70% of the world isn't Christian, but that doesn't mean that Christianity is false.
I also understand that about 30% of the world IS Christian, but again, that doesn't mean it's true.
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Why is that something someone else believes that is in opposition to your belief it is "simply opinion". But when it's your belief it's "evidence"?
I can ask the same question of *you*, phet. I mean, think about it.
Diesel asked me what I use as 'evidence' to believe in the resurrection. One thing I wrote was:
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1. Jesus' death and resurrection was predicted several hundred years before it happened.
Then Diesel said:
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Terrible evidence. When writing a book after the fact, it is easy to portray the main character as predicting future events.
...which does not DISprove anything. Can you or Diesel or anyone else for that matter prove that it's erroneous to believe what Diesel suggests?
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If it's not perfect, it's somewhat unreliable.
Somewhat? Why? Heck, with that attitude, we may as well never call another witness to the witness stand when trying to try a crime! According to Diesel, witness testimony is "unreliable". He didn't say SOME witness testimony, or even that it's "somewhat" unreliable.
The reliability of a witness depends on a number of factors. The testimony of a prostitute shouldn't be dismissed simply because she's a prostitute. A man's testimony shouldn't be dismissed because he's deaf in one ear. Questionable, perhaps. But not "somewhat unreliable".
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What is the depth of your investigation of Buddhism? Hinduism? Other specific religions
How "deeply" do I have to investigate before making a decision? Whether it's religion, choosing a profession or choosing a mate, at what point do I get to say, "Not For Me" with *your* approval, phet?
If I found what I want in Christianity, why "fix" what ain't broke?
Well...it's not only true to *me*. Out of 7.5 billion people on this planet, I'm sure it's true for a "few" more than just me...
Collective beliefs does not mean something is true. Do the millions of people that believe in aliens make it true they exist?
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Just because EVERYONE or even ALMOST EVERYONE doesn't believe in Christianity doesn't mean it isn't true. And the "logic" isn't only applied to religious beliefs.
Then why doesn't everyone believe it is true? If Christianity is soooo compelling everyone would believe right?
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Who said He doesn't? I didn't. God knows what our fate is because of how well He knows us. He's not causing us to do these things. He knows us so well that He can predict our future and never be wrong about it.
Then if God knows our fate we have no free will.
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Saying that it's "terrible" evidence is simply an opinion. Just as it's easy to portray the main character as predicting future events, it can take the same effort NOT to. It's easy to lie. It's just as easy NOT to lie.
Testimony from the bible IS evidence. Virtually ALL of those so-called "errors, contradictions, etc." are not errors/contradictions at all.
Even if Mark was written around 70 CE,...so what? The passage of time doesn't automatically negate facts.
Eyewitness testimony isn't always perfect, but just because it's not perfect doesn't automatically make it "unreliable".
We have evidence that eyewitness testimony is unreliable. Thus why we can't use it for historical evidence. Let me ask you. If this was such an amazing improbable event that was witnessed by a few hundred people why was it kept a secret? Why did they not tell everyone alive? you know what would be good evidence? Contemporary sources. There were many historians alive during that time and after the resurrection but somehow none of these historians during this time were able to record such an improbable event and yet the Mayans 2000 yrs earlier were able to document seeing aliens? How is this even possible?
The simple fact is all you are making is theological Asserations. you have absolutely no evidence.
I have read each Gospel a number of times. What you say is a contradiction, others say is simply a different point of view. That is, a different vantage point.
You have? Then why does one Gospel say Jesus died before Passover and the another Gospel says he died after? There are many discrepancies I can point out about his death and resurrection if you would like me to point them out. I would argue I am more versed in the Bible than you are.
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A God being slow to anger and take action isn't evidence of a God who isn't all powerful; It shows me He's a God who is patient. He's a strategist.
Then he's not morally perfect. Would you sit back and watch all your family members die in a fire because you are patient and a strategist or if you had the power would you save them?
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Yes. And, no.
Either you do or you don't. how can you believe that a story is literal and not literal at the same time?
Last edited by Diesel350z; 08-13-2020 at 08:11 AM..
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