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Oh, the ways one must twist their minds to be religious .
Sad that you see it that way.
I think this helps me to get a better perspective on atheism. Just as the current scientific assumptions seem so self-evidentially obvious to you, as someone who is well-acquainted with them; that's how the existence of God seems to me.
From my perspective, my thought is "oh the ways one must twist their minds to be an atheist".
I know that you don't call yourself an atheist, but the principle remains.
I think this helps me to get a better perspective on atheism. Just as the current scientific assumptions seem so self-evidentially obvious to you, as someone who is well-acquainted with them; that's how the existence of God seems to me.
From my perspective, my thought is "oh the ways one must twist their minds to be an atheist".
I know that you don't call yourself an atheist, but the principle remains.
I find nothing sad about basing my world view on provable fact. You might try it sometime . Since I base my beliefs on established facts , we are miles apart . Science is based on observation, not faith in a book or religious teachers . That’s the beauty in science . It works. If it is found not to work, it is discarded .
Religion lacks the courage to test itself . Science is based completely on always testing itself to make sure it isn’t erring in some way. I’ll take that any day, thanks . Your faith, on the other hand, evidently precludes you from being able to admit that the Earth revolves around the Sun, unless I have missed a post in which you finally admitted this . No thanks . I have no interest in fooling myself because my faith requires it of me
So why is this discussion over the catholic church’s inquisition? Isn’t it a closed issue? It has admitted it was wrong, made a bad mistake. End pf story. Its members still see value in its teaching.
What is the point in opening up a closed story? I am reading an athiest-mystical masturbation..
You know this unreasonably extreme pseudo-tolerance you and Tzaph keep preaching is becoming quite annoying. Torquemada was not merely a bad mistake. His tortures and murders were unadulterated evil personified. Get real. They were a direct result of this unquestioning accession to the religious authority of the Catholic Church.
Whatever they teach a 6th grader about the solar system (or any subject for that matter); is it a dogma that cannot be challenged or questioned? You seem to have taken offense that anything taught in 6th grade science might be questioned.
And when a non-believer questions the evidence that has lead a believer to their dogma, can it too not be challenged or questioned without offense?
I think this helps me to get a better perspective on atheism. Just as the current scientific assumptions seem so self-evidentially obvious to you, as someone who is well-acquainted with them; that's how the existence of God seems to me.
From my perspective, my thought is "oh the ways one must twist their minds to be an atheist".
I know that you don't call yourself an atheist, but the principle remains.
That's fair enough actually.
It's only self evident if you have been taught it I suppose.
In Galileo's time it would have appeared that the sun revolved around the earth to them. It was a natural thing to think. The sun rose, moved across and fell everyday. Now we know better.
In my opinion, it's perfectly okay to accept scientific findings AND believe in god. That's one of the things I have learned from being on this forum.
1) Has the Catholic Church ever taught dogmatically, de fide, that the earth is the center of the solar system?
There's this.
Before we proceed, we see that in 1616 eleven theologian-qualifiers of the Holy Office condemned heliocentrism as heretical. This was not an ex cathedra pronouncement, for Pope Paul V did not solemnly promulgate this decision on his own authority. He didn’t even sign it, but it was done with his knowledge and approval. St. Robert Bellarmine, a Doctor of the Church, was also aware of and in agreement with the declaration of the eleven members of the Holy Office. St. Robert Bellarmine even informed Galileo of the Holy Office’s condemnation.
The Congregation of the Index (the Roman Congregation in charge of watching out for dangerous books) then published a decree on the order of Pope Paul V which forbade the circulation of heliocentric works for the reason that they are contrary to Holy Scripture. After the 1616 condemnation of heliocentrism and the decree which forbade works in favor of it, Galileo submitted to the decision. Galileo was also personally told not to write anything on it in the future.
So while it may not have been an ex cathedra pronouncement, it was nevertheless the position of the Roman Catholic church that geocentrism was true. Heliocentrism was condemned by the Congregation of the Index with the approval of Pope Paul v.
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2) With our current capabilities, is it even possible to prove that the earth is not the center of the solar system?
Yes. One way is by means of Stellar parallax. The earth's orbit around the sun is huge. When the position of stars against more distant background objects is taken and then taken again six months later when the earth is on the opposite side of the sun there is a shift in the position of those stars as seen from the earth. The change in earth's orbital position around the sun causes the observed shift.
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If the answer to either of these questions is "no" (and to my understanding it is), then my claim stands.
I have to ask, did you doubt the solar system model before becoming a Catholic, or have you had to willingly regress in knowledge since becoming one ?
“Willingly regress in knowledge”?
I don’t know that I’ve ever given it much thought until this thread, tbh.
I’ve always been a skeptical person by nature. I’m a big believer in “question everything”, especially when it comes to the “acceptable” narrative. That’s what led me to Catholicism; and it’s in the Catholic Faith where I find my grounding, really.
That’s the beauty in science . It works. If it is found not to work, it is discarded .
It “works” to what end? It can’t bring eternal salvation or reconcile man to God. Those things are much more important to me than technological advancements or a more precise understanding of the physical world.
You know this unreasonably extreme pseudo-tolerance you and Tzaph keep preaching is becoming quite annoying. Torquemada was not merely a bad mistake. His tortures and murders were unadulterated evil personified. Get real. They were a direct result of this unquestioning accession to the religious authority of the Catholic Church.
Your ahistorical caricatures aside; Torquemada had nothing to do with Galileo. They didn’t even live in the same century.
And when a non-believer questions the evidence that has lead a believer to their dogma, can it too not be challenged or questioned without offense?
I personally don’t get offended. I can’t speak for others.
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. Since I base my beliefs on established facts , we are miles apart . Science is based on observation, not faith in a book or religious teachers . That’s the beauty in science . It works. If it is found not to work, it is discarded .
