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Wow. My compliments. How long did it take you to write all this up before you decided to post it for the rest of us? I'm impressed...
Thanks LM. Most of it is a culmination of things I've been thinking about and piecing together in my head for a long time (years). The tricky part was getting it all together in way that would make sense to other people and not to be tempted myself to go off in all kinds of tangents.
I'm absolutely fascinated by physics and spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about various aspects of it. (I'm fully aware how weird that sounds.)
I'd mentioned that a few missing pieces fell into place for me recently and a couple of people said they'd be interested in hearing about it.
I'll address your thoughts about purpose in another post because I want to get back to Ruth on that as well..
On a final note as I have mentioned in other threads, I don’t actually believe the universe will ever end. I speculate that perhaps something cyclical is going on, which is possible in an infinite universe even if this particular one lasts trillions of years. Thankfully, there seems to a move in the scientific community back to considering possibilities such as this one. I considered adding this to the thread as well but I think there is enough here to take on already and is in a sense irrelevant to our place here right now.
Are you referring to the recent theoretical work that offers a framework for how information could be conserved within black holes?
The universe is defined by two principles: symmetry and least action.
If information can exist and then be destroyed, that is an asymmetry. I think that is part of what is pushing the scientific community to rethink the Hawking interpretation of the end state of the universe.
Personally I am aligned with the rethink. I am actually excited by it. Theoretical physics sets the intellectual tone for eras. The Newtonian era was the age of reason, the relativistic and quantum eras upended a lot of things and led to instability for a half century. The postwar belief in heat death fostered a lot of nihilism.
A restoration of belief in the infinite would improve the mood of society, IMO.
Wow. My compliments. How long did it take you to write all this up before you decided to post it for the rest of us? I'm impressed...
I haven't read the rest of the comments in this thread, but I plan to do that next. Meanwhile just a quick thing or two about what you write here. As you know, I'm an atheist too, and much you explain is in large part why I am an atheist. This and more.
Where I quickly noticed we have a different perspective is this notion about our purpose. To have a purpose suggests some sort of source that had something in mind for us. I haven't found good reason to believe this to be the case. That the universe "isn't purposeless" is not a common belief among atheists either, for much the same reason. Sure seems to me that any purpose we might suggest for ourselves or others is a very personal matter. Everyone free to establish whatever purpose they choose, but beyond our personal thoughts about purpose, I don't know of any evidence there is purpose like you describe on a grander scale.
That we are the result of what is more likely a random course of events that still unfolds in a rather random sort of way is what is more magical and amazing to me. Without purpose. Another reason to celebrate life and make the most of what we can while we can. No doubt the "purpose" of nature generally speaking is to keep on keeping on. To procreate, but otherwise I don't really think about having a purpose, and I don't feel any sort of missing anything as a result.
Something like simply enjoying nature for all that it is without concern for reason or purpose or the very real possibility all life on Earth could also end for no real reason either. Existence will go on either way in all it's amazing forms with or without us. Apparently with no real beginning or end. All as you describe and all the rest amount to quite the humbling realization all considered.
As they say in Spanish, "no somos nada."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
I don't follow your reasoning at all. People can project whatever purpose onto their life, that their psychology inclines them to. The OP believes, that life on our planet, in our particular galaxy, was the result of a series of mostly random occurrences, the sum total of which created by chance a habitable planet and life forms that eventually evolved into the world we know.
If that's true, then how could there possibly be inherent meaning in a series of random occurrences on a planet that just happened to be the right distance from its sun to foster life?
I'm still waiting to hear from the OP on that. OP?
Ruth I did actually respond in a previous post but perhaps I need to expand for you and LM.
These are some of the common things I hear about purpose, not necessarily limited to things mentioned in this thread.
1. Our sole purpose is to procreate.
2. Purpose in only personal / individual.
3. You can't have any purpose if you are an atheist /You can only have purpose if you believe in god.
4. God decides our purpose. It's all in the hands of God, not ours.
Those are four different angles on purpose already, so already we have four slightly different meanings. But I'll try to explain how I think if it.
Humans are clearly about more than just procreation. We are more than just a collection of sex organs. We have brains and hands and opposable thumbs. We can make tools and build houses and make music and art and tell stories.
Sure we would not be here if it were not for our parents, but procreation is not the sum total of who we are. In art neither Michaelangelo or Da Vinci had children. In science neither Isaac Newton or Edwin Hubble had children. In writing neither Jane Austen or Emily Bronte had children... pick any similar category, but you get my point. Were these peoples lives without meaning or purpose? You could even make an argument that these particular people's achievements may have only been made possible because they didn't have children.
I liken it to the Beatles - none of whom could read or write music. It's my theory that not being able to write music is what gave them the creative freedom to really explore their musical creativity.
If we want to get really philosophical about it, maybe atheism is what gives us the freedom to think outside the box.
As to the personal factor, let's take CERN as an example - .the European organisation for Nuclear Research. - in my opinion one of the pinnacles of human achievement. It is comprised of 23 member countries. It has thousands of international scientists working there and provides data used by tens of thousands more research scientists.
Here is what CERN says in it's opening page:
Quote:
At CERN, the European Organization for Nuclear Research, physicists and engineers are probing the fundamental structure of the universe. They use the world's largest and most complex scientific instruments to study the basic constituents of matter – the fundamental particles. The particles are made to collide together at close to the speed of light. The process gives the physicists clues about how the particles interact, and provides insights into the fundamental laws of nature.
I'd say that's a pretty clear collective purpose.
Is CERN's purpose directed by god?
If god does not exist, does that mean what they are doing is purposeless and meaningless? No of course not. Of course it is purposeful and meaningful.
A person and / or humanity does not need god or to believe in a god to give life purpose.
Scale up what is happening at CERN to the whole of humanity and perhaps that helps explain what I'm saying.
I do understand that what people are getting at is that god believers may feel that purpose is somehow inbuilt in 'creation'.
Well if it's inbuilt, then it's there whether I believe it or not. It's either there or it's not.
That I believe humanity gives itself purpose is no less meaningful to me than a theist believing God gave them purpose. It's just shifting that purpose onto someone I don't believe in anyway.
Are you referring to the recent theoretical work that offers a framework for how information could be conserved within black holes?
The universe is defined by two principles: symmetry and least action.
If information can exist and then be destroyed, that is an asymmetry. I think that is part of what is pushing the scientific community to rethink the Hawking interpretation of the end state of the universe.
Personally I am aligned with the rethink. I am actually excited by it. Theoretical physics sets the intellectual tone for eras. The Newtonian era was the age of reason, the relativistic and quantum eras upended a lot of things and led to instability for a half century. The postwar belief in heat death fostered a lot of nihilism.
A restoration of belief in the infinite would improve the mood of society, IMO.
Yes! This is exactly it! It makes total sense to me. It helped so many things fall into place.
Thank you. I wanted to add this but I felt it might be a concept too far. I'm really excited about it too. I'm so happy to read your post.
You need to take off your god glasses and try and understand the science.
What you are essentially asking is to "understand the understanding".
Science, ultimately, means "knowledge" and/or the state of knowing/understanding.
If, "God = ALL" as I believe...any knowledge and/or understanding is necessarily of and about "God".
And once anyone gets hip to that...they will gain true understanding.
Nobody can "take off their God glasses"...because it's the "ALL God show", all the time...and since "God is ALL" it can never be anything but that.
What renders life meaningless IMHO is the inevitability of death and the suffering that befalls 99% of us in way or another. All this development of man ultimately is meaningless because there's no real point to it all, excerpt on a spiritual level and we don't even know if a spirit world exists.
There is no “spirit” world apart from you. there is only a single Consciousness.
What renders life meaningless IMHO is the inevitability of death and the suffering that befalls 99% of us in way or another. All this development of man ultimately is meaningless because there's no real point to it all, excerpt on a spiritual level and we don't even know if a spirit world exists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by normstad
You need to take off your god glasses and try and understand the science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
What you are essentially asking is to "understand the understanding".
Science, ultimately, means "knowledge" and/or the state of knowing/understanding.
If, "God = ALL" as I believe...any knowledge and/or understanding is necessarily of and about "God".
And once anyone gets hip to that...they will gain true understanding.
Nobody can "take off their God glasses"...because it's the "ALL God show", all the time...and since "God is ALL" it can never be anything but that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
There is no “spirit” world apart from you. there is only a single Consciousness.
Also...it seems many times that the Atheists cling onto "Science"...and not as "knowledge/understanding", but as a process (Scientific Method) that tries to figure things out...and then they embrace whatever is the current information/data that there is.
Of course...this information/data may be faulty and/or invalid...and it's hard to find "Meaning in Life" when the focus is on something so "cold".
Once one views Everything & Anything (ALL Reality) as "God", then everything has "meaning", because it is viewed as what comprises The Supreme & Ultimate Reality (God, as defined) and it is, in totality, The Divine, and doesn't need to exist in any way other than how it does. Nor do we need to really "know" (The "science") much about it...except that it "is".
Our mortal lives are limited to a short time to "be"...most of us can use our consciousness to behold, appreciate, and find "meaning" in anything & everything that we experience, in our own unique, individual way that our particular consciousness perceives, assesses, and "knows" it.
I'm an agnostic deist (I'm not sure if there is a god but if there is it's a deist). I can comprehend Christian's viewpoint but I cannot appreciate it because Christians love to give God all the glory when there is a good outcome but then whitewash him if there is a bad outcome. This kind of logic is a one-way street and no sensible person would subscribe to it.
Yes. It's the "heads I win and tails you lose game."
I have a real hard time understanding what an agnostic deist is. Is that something like a vegetarian carnivore?
"Deists assert that reason could find evidence of God in nature and that God had created the world and then left it to operate under the natural laws devised by God." -- This you?
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